Just an attempt to clarify the multiple e-collar use:
?"I can understand why one would use 1 e-collar but I have seen Malis train with 2 and even 3 e-collars in BR. ?Maybe you care to explain this? I can hardly consider this a stimulous."
You see it alot in BR- a collar on the neck, stomach, and sometimes the tail. These collars are not placed there to be brutal and punish the dog. The dog's don't need them because they are too strong or out of control. They are more of a stimulus/signal for certain behaviors. Ofcourse by just slapping an e-collar on your dog's stomach or tail (just like the neck) and pressing buttons, you will highly traumatize him, not train him. The dog must be used to feeling something in those areas first. The stomach collar is almost always used as a method of reinforcing the "out". When the dog feels stimulation on his stomach, his natural reaction is to let go and turn around. In all fairness, the dog should understand "out" first. ?Many times, people use an e-collar on the dog's neck to out them. The problem with that is with a highly driven dog, you may cause aggression and make the out even worse, dog gets dirty or you get the "electric out". Not a fan of that. ?A collar on the tail is a negative motivator to go forward or faster. Again, the dog must be used to feeling something on the base of his tail first and understand that stimulation (doesn't have to be from an e-collar) there means go!. ?Working Mals don't need these tools by any means, but they are useful as, when used correctly (low level stim training), they reduce or eliminate dog-handler conflict and therefore make it easier for the dog to learn. Many trainers still use the "Old School" techniques for training working mals, but many are discovering the benefits of new tools & techniques in general. ?It's hard to explain low level stimulus training without showing it. Bart Bellon does many seminars on it throughout Europe and there are a handfull of trainers in the States as well that understand it. It definitely works...very well, but it doesn't mean that everyone out there has to do it. Like Jeannette said, you must have good knowledge of how a dog learns and timing is essential. Everyone has there own training preference and there is nothing wrong with that. ? [/quote
There's nothing like internet training....
....Except for internet seminars....
« Last Edit: December 30, 2004, 05:48:09 PM by Waleed_Maalouf »
Well now the MAN himself is here and you can ask him directly!
Hi Fred!
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"Desire is the key to motivation, but it's the determination and commitment to an unrelenting pursuit of your goal - a commitment to excellence - that will enable you to attain the success you seek."
I think allmost all training methods can be used the wrong way. We treat dogs at our clinick with larinx problems caused by the incorrect use of chooking collars. Also some people can be verry fysical using all there extremeties to get a dog to listen. Even using a real friendly clicker you can make a dog stress out and insucure. I just feel that an electric device has even more danger in it if used in the wrong way. Using it you need to know about shaping behaviour, possitive and negeative corrections and rewards, you need to be able to time really wel and if using different stimulation points on the dog you allso need to push the right button all the time. Knowing how hard it is to teach someone to use a bridging signal at the right moment if feel you really need a good training before using it on a dog. Offcourse there people out there who can but I am confinced the majority can not react fast enough to use it properly. So Saskia I agree with you but I'm not saying the method is not working since it does work like a well used chooking collar works and a well used clicker works etc.. etc... I'm looking forward to the explanations
I think allmost all training methods can be used the wrong way.
F.H. Hi Jeanette. A couple of things, first of all........all training tools are 'neutral' and change dramatically in regards to who the operator is. Secondly, we do not sell remote collars to people without our training, and neither do our graduates. We don't sell them on the internet, or to people that are inquiring through our office that want to buy one, without going through our training. Remote collar training is basically about problem solving like most training. If everything went the right way when you press the button.........everybody would be doing it successfully. If the dog understood it because he was leash trained first...........everybody would be doing it successfully there as well, since the vast majority of people leash train dogs first or clicker train them first, or whatever train them first, then bring the collar in..........it doesn't go peachy-keen though, cause they are not familiar with what they are seeing, the problems that come up (as they do in any training), and they have no where to turn cause most of the dog training community doesn't have much of a clue when it comes to remote collar training, so you certainly can't blame the public for not having a clue, when the professional dog trainers are thoroughly confused. Thus, we have a school for professional trainers..........and a wildly successful one at that. More info on our school and our certified trainers can be found at www.nolimitations.biz Alot of information out there is just a bunch of wivestales that were created because there are so many people that don't have clue about remote collars and how to use them. We are not debating what they are saying on the different things that happen, in fact, we are agreeing that all this stuff, can and would happen with people that don't really know what's going on. That should only be a cue to you that perhaps that is not the person that you want to be teaching you how to successfully use a remote collar. Go to where the success is. I'm sure a Doctor wouldn't be surprised if I picked up a scalpel, started performing surgery, and then went up to him and told him all the things that were screwing up, and how the whole surgery was a flop, and that surgery doesn't work, and scalpels don't work. It wouldn't surprise him at all that all those things were happening to me. It would certainly be a cue to him though, that perhaps I'm not the guy to go to if you wanted to have surgery performed or to learn how to do it.
You are so right if you state every training tool can be misused. I think the remote collar training is verry interesting and I'm always open to "new" methods I am not placing an attack here just stating that you need to know a lot about learning to be able to use it the right way. E-collars can be bought every were without problems and without training, just a small book explaning how it should be used. I think you need a real good training to be able to use them. I'm just not happy to see more and more people walking arround with a remote controle in their hands and stressed out dogs. Seems like more and more bad "surgens" are running arround I am getting quite of topick so I will leave the explanations on how to work with remote contr. training to the experts
In the middle of this video on our staff, is some footage of one of our remote collar classes. These are all a bunch of everyday people that had no idea about dog training, and we taught them how to use a remote. It's very nice to see the general public in calm control of their dogs. We will see alot more of this in classes and with people learning to use remotes as time goes on. http://www.fredhassen.com/video/movie_fh2.htm The class clip is somewhere in the middle of this link.
Well Fred im verry happy that your join. I have seen a lot of you videos and read most of the articles you have on your web page. But still I have some questions. If I understand correctly you train with kind of total control, using good timing to show the dog when he is wrong. But in this videos I could not see what exactly the dogs work for. I mean they all seem very happy, but what is their reword? Well can you be that nice and explain how your method works. How do you start introducing e.collar and what do you do with a young dog. And how do you teach these dogs to do flips?? I would love to teach that.
Maja writes: If I understand correctly you train with kind of total control, using good timing to show the dog when he is wrong.
Hi Maja, if we only used the collar to show when he is wrong, we would have problems motivating the dog and our system would be called "Many limitations" instead of "No Limitations". By the way, do you have a website also? I always like to get a better understanding of who I am discussing things with. You sound like a very nice person, and a very good trainer as well.
Well sorry for late replay (im just back from holidays). Unfortenatlly i dont have a web page. I only have one dog and dont have enought material for a web page yet. But in short a have a 3 year old malinois Rik and at the moment training for IPO. He has been with me for over a year and half. In first year I had a lot of problems due to pore early socialization, to much harsh handling at early age or even his somehow more sensitive nature. So even if I originally bought him for IPO, the first year was more or less just training agility (since that did not produce any stress in training) and most of all training him to be a nicer dog After a year when he become more stable I started with IPO training. Im allways on the look out for new info on training. My goal in training is to tray and give my dog proper information at the right time, so basiclly good timing and simple conditioning. And of course that dog works with clear head, happy and not afraid. I do agree there are many different ways that could lead to one goal and that every dog is different. Regarding e.collars i had this endless conversations. Im not saying im either for or against it. I do think with proper training it can be a good tool. But nobody (that I know) thinks that it can be a marker to. Well once i have seen this in the seminar. It was used only as a negative marker ( low stimulant) just as if you would use clicker for positive. It did make a lot of sense to me, but still I have seen to many people missuse it to be really enthusiastic about it. What I also dont like, as a training tool it has been forbiden in most of European countries but everybody use it. That is something that I just can not understand. You have to first explain to somebody to be able to understand. You need knowledge first. So that why I wrote that Im still verry much puzzled by your method. I would love to come and enter your seminar, but unfortenatlly slovenia is a bit far from the states to just come for a seminar. I did read everything on your web page but u have to admit that you never wrote about step by step info on you method. I would just like to know a little bit more if of course you are willing to share that with us.
I am not against e-collars. But i want too explane something first. I was on a seminar where someone trains with e-collars. He showed us people how too traine some exercise. Now my dog he doesn't need an ?e-collar but he had a problem with going dow real fast it was for me a bit slow. I ask this person how can i made this better with out using a e-collar. But he didn't no the anwser. the only anwser i got was use the e-collar. Now what I am trying too say is do these people who train alot with e-collars think and can they train with-out an e-collar and only with an pinch-collar. With-out kicking and hitting the dog. Because i can not understand that a dog has respect for the handler. He has respect for the e-collar but not for the handler. P.s. I know how too use a e-collar. How too let the dog get used too it. But for me the training is more than pushing the button. You must still can look your companion in the eyes next day it is not an Robot or some peace off meat.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2005, 03:02:47 AM by Bjorn »
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