Ok I know we already discuss about e.collar or so called teletact, but Im still very much puzzled by this. I read about Fred Hesson and his training, saw a lot of clips and videos. I have see normal e.collar trainig but somehow his training looks so much different. What is your opinion, maybe somebody even knows him or been to his seminar.
Actually, Fred is a very good trainer and has proven this with many different breeds and in many different programs. His dogs are extremely motivated and the ecollar is not used for its punishment value, but rather it's 'teaching value'.
It's amazing what can be accomplished with it. His seminars are quite successful and many who have attended them recommend them highly and have gone repeatedly to them.
Anyways, he's in the USA and most of his seminars are in NA. Hope that helps.
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"Desire is the key to motivation, but it's the determination and commitment to an unrelenting pursuit of your goal - a commitment to excellence - that will enable you to attain the success you seek."
I only red this last post which from I found this word: e-collar. I assume it is used for shortness for the electronic collar?
In Finland such training equipments are forbidden with law for animals rights. I, myself, don?t approve that kind of equipment except for very special occasions like when dog is very much on hunt-drive and would cause damage to itself when leaving after prey.
I have been training dogs for 10 years to the championshiplevel without ANY equipment like that. All problems I or my traingroups members have had, have been easy to solve with pure and simple understanding of dogs drives.
I really don?t understand how someone can be in position for training others and keeping courses when cannot even get his/hers own dog work without electric?
It must either be most massive ignorance of canine behavior- or is it just that workinglinebreeding is producing dogs which cannot be handled anymore without this sort of cruelty.
-Birdie-
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As far as I know this E-collar training is something like the method of Bart Bellon (Ballon?) The E-collar is not used to correct behaviour for most of the time but is used as stimulus controle device in a low setting, so it should not have anything to do with mistreatment. My opinion is that an E-collar should only be used by people who understand the way a dog learns.
>>In Finland such training equipments are forbidden with law for animals rights.
***Just because something is forbidden doesn't make it a 'right move'. ?Most know that animal rights people are fanatics and those which implement laws like this are NOT dog trainers but show people, pet people, and animal activists. ?Many laws are implemented simply out of ignorance.
>>>I, myself, don?t approve that kind of equipment except for very special occasions like when dog is very much on hunt-drive and would cause damage to itself when leaving after prey.
***Don't judge a book by its cover. ?You view ecollars very primitively as did people 50 years ago. ?Training has evolved. ?Education and knowledge are power. ?It is a training tool...not a punishment tool.
>>>I have been training dogs for 10 years to the championshiplevel without ANY equipment like that.
***And so have these people. ?But they were intuitive enough to realize that there are better ways. ?A good trainer will modify their techniques and always be open minded to different methods and try to understand why and how they work. ?And I also trained for almost 20 years without an ecollar and made it to the #1 in my country out of 26,000 dogs. ?And I have since trained with ecollars...Until you've done both and achieved with both...how can you judge and criticize?
>>>All problems I or my traingroups members have had, have been easy to solve with pure and simple understanding of dogs drives.
***Again, this shows you truly don't understand the usage of an ecollar. ?It is a TRAINING tool. ?You don't just use it for problems big or small...Again you look at it as punishment...
>>>I really don?t understand how someone can be in position for training others and keeping courses when cannot even get his/hers own dog work without electric?
***You are assuming and jumping to conclusions again. ?And you don't understand how ecollar training is done. ?Who said they can't get their dogs trained without stimulation? ?I suggest you learn something about it before making statements which are false and misleading especially to newcomers.
>>>It must either be most massive ignorance of canine behavior-
****lol very true it is pure ignorance to judge and criticize something which one doesn't understand.
>>>or is it just that workinglinebreeding is producing dogs which cannot be handled anymore without this sort of cruelty.
***Again your lack of understanding is apparent....
>>>In the following clips you will see dogs trained on the ecollar....
***Tell me where you see the cruelty here? ?Do the dogs look frightened or stressed? ?Do they look motivated and happy? ?It's amazing what can be achieved with this tool IN THE RIGHT HANDS.
***One of these dogs in the clips was a police dog which was extremely dangerous. ?He had attacked every handler he had, and was sentenced to be put down by the police department. ?The ecollar gave this dog another chance at life....
« Last Edit: December 30, 2004, 01:01:56 AM by ultramal »
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"Desire is the key to motivation, but it's the determination and commitment to an unrelenting pursuit of your goal - a commitment to excellence - that will enable you to attain the success you seek."
The problem with explaining e-collars to people who don't know them and haven't seen and experimented (on themselves) is the notion "e" from electricity. When we think of electricity we remember the times we touched a loose wire , touched an electric fence or these new fly "hitters" where you touch a fly with and the sparks fly all the way. En e-collar doesn't give sparks, in fact i use it and the setting on a wet day is such that i (with dry hands) don't realy feel it when testing it. The best setting for everyday use is the lowest level that gives a reaction of the dog. Therefor it is when proper used not a torture instrument
Exactly Johan, and Fred explains it in the first video I believe. Stimulation vs shock. That is why many people are now using the term 'remote collar' as opposed to 'ecollar', which tends to bring about a stereotypical response and attitude from the general public.
The whole purpose of an ecollar is to use the lowest setting possible for everything. Even if you have to increase it temporarily...the goal is to bring the stimulation back down as far as possible.
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"Desire is the key to motivation, but it's the determination and commitment to an unrelenting pursuit of your goal - a commitment to excellence - that will enable you to attain the success you seek."
I do know the low stimulation training methods and saw how they work and they work if used in the right way. I allso think you need to know a lot about how a dog learns to be able to use it the right way. Timing is essential and I still think most people have difficulties with timing. Now I see people gooing to a seminair who think they know it all and start using e-collars in the wrong way. I think this is the danger of the product. I rather see someone using the clicker at the wrong moment then someone pushing the wrong button on his remote at the wrong moment. If used in the right way it's not a correction tool but I think the use should be limited too experianced people who went trough a good training.
I know that when used correctly it can work. But let's be honest how many % of the people using these collars know how to use it? I believe not too many and I wonder if you could not reach the same by using other methods.
My sister once put one of these collars on her hand and she said it tickled but did not hurt.
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>>>or is it just that workinglinebreeding is producing dogs which cannot be handled anymore without this sort of cruelty.
***Again your lack of understanding is apparent....
I to some level wonder the same as Birdie. I can understand why one would use 1 e-collar but I have seen Malis train with 2 and even 3 e-collars in BR. Maybe you care to explain this? I can hardly consider this a stimulous.
Saskia
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Just an attempt to clarify the multiple e-collar use:
"I can understand why one would use 1 e-collar but I have seen Malis train with 2 and even 3 e-collars in BR. Maybe you care to explain this? I can hardly consider this a stimulous."
You see it alot in BR- a collar on the neck, stomach, and sometimes the tail. These collars are not placed there to be brutal and punish the dog. The dog's don't need them because they are too strong or out of control. They are more of a stimulus/signal for certain behaviors. Ofcourse by just slapping an e-collar on your dog's stomach or tail (just like the neck) and pressing buttons, you will highly traumatize him, not train him. The dog must be used to feeling something in those areas first. The stomach collar is almost always used as a method of reinforcing the "out". When the dog feels stimulation on his stomach, his natural reaction is to let go and turn around. In all fairness, the dog should understand "out" first. Many times, people use an e-collar on the dog's neck to out them. The problem with that is with a highly driven dog, you may cause aggression and make the out even worse, dog gets dirty or you get the "electric out". Not a fan of that. A collar on the tail is a negative motivator to go forward or faster. Again, the dog must be used to feeling something on the base of his tail first and understand that stimulation (doesn't have to be from an e-collar) there means go!. Working Mals don't need these tools by any means, but they are useful as, when used correctly (low level stim training), they reduce or eliminate dog-handler conflict and therefore make it easier for the dog to learn. Many trainers still use the "Old School" techniques for training working mals, but many are discovering the benefits of new tools & techniques in general. It's hard to explain low level stimulus training without showing it. Bart Bellon does many seminars on it throughout Europe and there are a handfull of trainers in the States as well that understand it. It definitely works...very well, but it doesn't mean that everyone out there has to do it. Like Jeannette said, you must have good knowledge of how a dog learns and timing is essential. Everyone has there own training preference and there is nothing wrong with that.
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~Stephanie O'Brien Fat Louie Des Barriques FR III 2007 NARA Overall Domestic Champion
I can understand why one would use 1 e-collar but I have seen Malis train with 2 and even 3 e-collars in BR. Maybe you care to explain this? I can hardly consider this a stimulous.
Saskia
Hi Saskia...........I have seen people tug on a choke chain, then reach down and tap the inside of a hip to tuck them in on a heel, then closely thereafter put their foot under a belly to make them stand, and then quickly reach down and pat the top of a rear end to get a dog to sit, all with various degrees of intensity. We can do all this, and more both next to us, and remotely and with the exact same body picture as walking next to them and doing nothing. If one isn't a stimulus.........then neither is the other.
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don't get it
