Epilepsy

[Supernova]

Hi!

I would be interested to hear from you who live in the continental europe, how big problem you think epilepsy is in our breed? Is there a lot of belgians with epilepsy and in which variants in that case?

In Finland and Sweden we know quite well about the epileptic dogs in our populations here, but even then there is still a lot of quietness about it. Somehow I have this image in my mind that breeders here are anyway more willing to admit that they have epilepticdogs in their bred litters than in the rest of the Europe, and they even show openly the healthstatistics on their homepages, this is admirable I think.

In Finland and Sweden we have also database kept by breedklub where you can find dogs whose ownerd/breeder have noted ?they have epilepsy or other health problem. Does something like that exist in rest of the Europes breedclubs?

[Petra]

I cannot really speek of the other variety's In the Laeken we rarely see epilepsy. At least I don't know any Laeken with it. We hear more problems with epilepsy in the langhaired variety's. This year the Dutch club NVBH had an enquete for all members. Not everyone answered. From these results we will hear soon, I hope.

Petra.

[Jenni]

 Somehow I have this image in my mind that breeders here are anyway more willing to admit that they have epilepticdogs in their bred litters than in the rest of the Europe, and they even show openly the healthstatistics on their homepages, this is admirable I think.

Do You really think so, Supernova? Do You really believe in that? In our finnish database there are 38 epileptic tervs. If I tell You that in last 25 weeks, I've heard at least one new seizuring dog/week, how does it cope with the information that's public? And more willing? How come the epileptics come from the few breeders, who tell also all the rest including temperamentproblems, hooktails, addisons and so on eventhough we all have almost completely the same lines all over the world? They are very willing to draw lawsuit on us who talk about it, as You should know, and that's all.

So please cut the crap about willingness. Most of them talk and tell when they get caught with their hands feet deep in shit, otherwise they just tell that their dogs seizure, because the stitches are too tight after castration...  

J

[Supernova]

Jenni, I never said that all breeders in Scandinavia would be open about their health statistics (although I maybe should have used more clear language, pardon my english), I said...

there is still a lot of quietness about it. Somehow I have this image in my mind that breeders here are anyway more willing to admit that they have epilepticdogs in their bred litters than in the rest of the Europe

And by that "more willing"I mean that at least you can find SOME breeders here that have given out to public their health statistics. If you have been surfing on breeders websites you should know that there are almost NONE in the rest of the world that does that. How big is scandinavia? How many breeders are here? And then compare to the rest of the europe, how big is it? How many breeders? I would call it a difference anyway... Would you not?

What I tried was just to arise some discussion about this somewhat avoided subject, and it looks like I got it, so thank you for your ?encouraging ?response ? Now we all know how willing you are to talk about the problems and make your voice heard ?

[Jenni]

As You should know, I am tired to be encouraging, because very little happens. The statistics You'll find are Mirribandi from Australia, finnish Finbelge and swedish belgarweb. All the else you have to pick out bit by bit.

Do You know, that when the new epilepsystudy in Finland was announced to be public, several dogs were withdrawn from it, including an import dog with almost identic pedigree with most of the tervs on this forum? ?

Do You know that one gr male was already in the epilepsystudy and the results are not public, and I believe You know who it was and why it's not public. ?:-/

And as I and everyone else can read between the lines You wrote, You are blaming me to be hush-hush. I am not. But believe me, most of the finnish policeforce have more important things to do than clear out the stupid fights between breeders. This should be a hobby to most of us. You dont' t sue people who say that your baseballbat is curved and your slings are poor. You help them giving them better bat and teaching the right sling. What happen in dogworld?

I hope we'll find european breeders and dog owners to talk about seizures, TLE-syndrome, thyroid-, heart- and spinalproblems. I really do hope so. Half a dozen scandinavian breeders a just a drop in the ocean...

J

[Supernova]

Well... I can just say that I understand all the frustration about the health/epilepsy situation and that nothing seems to happen.

But I also think that it's impossible to acchieve any changes if there will not be peaceful discussion about the problems. The problems excist and seem hard to be won, but I don't think it will help either try to be quiet about them or just scream out of frustration.

Don't you think that we have had changes in last 20 years? I think there has been changes coming as the knowlidge of different things, for example of health problems and genetics have increased. How many breeders did strive after,for example 20 years ago, to get the whole litters x-rayed in hips and elbows,eyes examined and mentaltested? Don't know about rest of the europe but in Scandinavia this is becoming more and more usual by more and more breeders as it looks like, and the breed clubs are also encouraging to that direction. I think we might be at least on the right course. And even the sea is big, all changes start from something small and that something I think we already have,  so let's not become tired to strive after a better future for our breed!  

What comes to the study you mentioned and the dogs that have been withrawn from it, I cannot comment as I don't have knowligde about the situation/ those dogs.

[Saskia]

I have absolutely no idea whether or not the BSD club in Belgium has a health database or not.

I think health issues can only be discussed in the open when people stop pointing fingers.  At the moment, when one breeder is honest and talks about the problems with his dogs, he is portraid as a bad breeder, a breeder you should never by a dog from.  The next breeder who has a problem with his dogs keeps quiet because he does not want to be called a bad breeder.  

We all know that the gene pool after World War II became small and the same dogs were used over and over again.  So most of the current day dogs have the same ancestors in their lines which makes it hard to get rid of the problem.

If I tell You that in last 25 weeks, I've heard at least one new seizuring dog/week, how does it cope with the information that's public?

.  Are these all genetically linked or are some of them induced by secondary circumstances (poison etc.)

Saskia

[Jenni]

Are these all genetically linked or are some of them induced by secondary circumstances (poison etc.)

Most of them genetic. I've been searching thru Belgarweb for gros and tervs and found up to 4 epileptics in one litter! My point is that, as also You wrote, our gene pool is not too wide, most of the seizuring dogs has common relatives, but also there is majority of healthy dogs. But as long as we don't talk about them openly, there is a good chance to make a mistake. Seizuring dog's siblings might as well carry the genes or then not - we don't know how epilepsy inherits! And we don't know where epileptics are, because people don't speak about them.

And what's worse: WHEN we start to talk seizures, there are numbers of malfomalities and diseases which appear in our race as in any other race; thyroid- and heart problems for instance. It is the place for complete chance in our attitudes. This is all about helping your fellow breeder-I got this problem, do not make the same mistake! But how can you help someone, who wants to drown?

It is so nice to have eyes, but not need to see,
it is so nice to have ears, but not have to listen,
it is so, so sweet to live in a perfect world!

J

[jeannette]

Hallo,

I am confinced the epilepsie problem in Europe is stil quite big. This is still easy to hide you can even breed a dog with the problem, ore blame it on a accident. I've heard so many excuses over the past 20 years.
We do not hear that much about it and since I'm breeding compleetly different dogs now I hardly speek to show breeders anymore.
I know I did have 4 out of 10 dogs with epilepsie and than there were dogs with thyroid problems, reumatic arthritus and elbow problems.  
All dogs and the mother were drawn back and  not bred anymore.
I was open about this and judged as bad breeder.
Other breeders told me I had to realise this just happend by mischance.
I'm still a bad breeder   breeding working Tervs. Up till now I had only one unhealthy dog out of 32  so I stil like to be bad

Jeannet

[Beausmom]

Hi Supernova

I just found this forum about a week ago and although I am not from Europe but the USA I do own a Belgian Sheepdog from Sweden who has Epilepsy and I am not afraid to talk about it....I did not breed this dog, but took him in as a foster dog almost 2 years old when he was 1 year old and his breeder and then owner thought he had epilepsy....I was contacted as I have another dog with this illness (not a Belgian but a Brittany Spaniel rescue dog) and also I have experience with this illness in people as well....Anyway, we took Quasar as a foster, we feel in love with him, and he never left.

I do not think that just because a breeder has epilepsy show up in a breeding that it makes them a bad breeder.  However, if the same breeder uses the same dog/dogs multiple times with the same result, that this is a breeder who is not really looking to better the breed...And I for one would not purchase another dog from this breeder, if they are still using the same unhealthy lines.  However, if this breeder had dogs of different lines that I felt comfortable with the health, then I would say Yes.

Although right now we can not know for sure all the Belgians that have it or are carriers of it until the DNA test becomes available and some studies indicate that about 16% of belgians have epilepsy, when you factor carriers it really means about 64% either have it or are carriers......There are some things breeders can do to lessen the risk...

1.  Become better educated about pedigrees
2. Be honest about what has shown up in breedings
3. Not use dogs so young before it may show up....This means not breeding when the dog/dogs are only 2 or 3 years old, as it may take up until the dog is 5 years old before it may show.  Yes! there are some dogs that it will show up very early in life and even a few later than 5 years old, But most Vets in the states will agree that if your dog does show epilepsy by 5, then more than likely the dog does not have it.  Now this does not mean the dog is not a Carrier....This is where knowing the pedigree and health of the dogs in the pedigree comes in.  This also means knowing the health of other offspring, siblings etc.

We do have a smaller gene pool compared to other breeds, but it is not that small......I think sometimes we use that as an excuse to continue to use the lines of some dogs that are well know for either having it or producing it multiple times...

Sorry for such a long reply....but if you haven't figured out yet, I have a passion for this subject.

[Beausmom]

I forgot to say in my original post who my Swedish Belgain is.......A te-Ells's Monsieur Quasar born 4/12/02
out of Tango Tara van Lana's Hof & chili Van't Belgisch Schoon......

Quasar has had seizures since before his first birthday and his last one was just last week.

[Jana]

Hello there,
after I have found these pages and topic "epilepsy" I just have to react somehow as well. I am sorry for my English because it is long time ago since I stayed in Canada and I forgot a lot. Anyway I guess and hope you will understand me. Well, I am from Czech and I am probably the only one who is able to say that my female has epilepsy. As I have read all messages here according to this health problem, I have to agree that I don?t know many breeders who are able to say they had bred belgians who has epilepsy. Well, in Czech I know only one. But it is not me I am not a breeder - I can say I am not a breeder because I have bought a female from Norway and she has epilepsy. Well for complete information my female is groenendael - Black Hawkwind?s Pandora. Her father: Fakaiser?s EMIR D?ENRAGE, mother is SENJA des Terres Bergeres. My "Pandy" is anyway part of my family and I love her a lot. Well I am not lucky with Belgians but I already started to love them, so because I live in smaller appartment I cannot own more than one dog. So, I am not breeder at all.
Well, many people here in Czech say they have no dogs with epilepsy but if you talk to the owners of such dogs you can quickly recognize where is the truth. Funny is that those "perfect" breeders are right those who introduce their kennels as "with no healthy problems".
If I say the true I have feeling that really only Swedish and Finnish breeders can be honest. I cannot say all of them but definitely more than from the rest of Europe.
And this is something what I have to appreciate. I have epileptic dog home - I know what I am talking about - it is very sad when you see dog with epilepsy attack which takes one hour and longer and you never know if this is not the last one. My big dream is that the breeders would be honest and opened with this problem. Well if my dog doesn?t have teeth or testicles - well he/she can still live nice life. But for example my Pandy loves to work, she was ready to IPO and other exams but because of epilepsy attacks she has to stop work, Belgians are dogs who love to do anything, they really need show how much energy is inside of them and you have to be the one who says "never ever". It is just sad. Well I write some stupid things, sorry.
But when I could read some of messages and "fightings" from the beginnings on this topic, I just have to say: "thank to every breeder who is honest and say about epilepsy in his lines to others.
Well, I wrote a lot, who knows if anybody will continue.
Jana

[Raven]

Hi Jana!

Welcome to our forum.

In any way you look at problem with epilepsy it is sad. Most of owners that have belgians don't really pay too much attention to epilepsy until one of their dogs has it.

Probably the biggest problem with silence is that breeders are afraid of admiting that they had puppie with epilepsi problem since they are afraid that it will create a problem with puppie sales.

It is hard to judge problem like this. We can only hope that one day epilepsi will be something that breeders will admit. Well a lot of them already do and that is great.

Let's hope that future is not that black as some of us see it. Jennie and Birdie (on this forum) are really working towards better future and lets hope more and more people will go this way.
They had their share of problems because of creating a database where dogs are listed who have epilepsi and other problems.

Bye, Raven

[Beausmom]

I forgot to say in my original post who my Swedish Belgain is.......A te-Ells's Monsieur Quasar born 4/12/02
out of Tango Tara van Lana's Hof & chili Van't Belgisch Schoon......

Quasar has had seizures since before his first birthday and his last one was just last week.

Sorry to say that since I last posted this Quasar continues to have seizures and they are getting more frequent (which I had hoped would not happen) and it appears that I will have to try and put him on medications and hope it works......and Secondly I am sorry to say that my other Belgian Sheepdog male Beau also has epilepsy just before his 3rd birthday.? For those interested Beau is from Belgium and I am hoping that his seizures will be infrequent so that I can hold off on putting him on medication.



I notice that this thread died pretty quickly.....I guess this is still a tough subject for people to discuss and probably harder for breeders.

I will leave you all with some statics , just keep in mind that are for the USA but I believe they are also reflective of Belgians around the world.? It is calculated that appx 64% of Belgian sheeddogs are effected by epilepsy.? This does not mean that 64% have it, but either have it or are carriers.? I would say that we have a problem....

[Jenni]

News of epilepsy!

In Finland epilepsystudy was finished and results are published. If admin gives the permission, I can put the complete, public list in here with links in the pedigrees and results of their exams.

The description of study and findings in here:

"Results of epilepsy research project of Belgian Shepherd dogs in Finland.

Introduction
In previous reports occurrence of epilepsy in BSD was estimated to be around 17%. Nevertheless, previous studies were based on questionnaires sent to breeders or dog owners. The aim of the current study was estimation of cause of seizures, definition of seizure characteristics and association between epilepsy and behavioural changes in selected group of BSD. This prospective clinical study was performed in collaboration with Finnish Belgian Shepherd Dog (BSD) Club.
Animals
17 BSD with minimum of 2 seizure episodes were selected in collaboration with Finnish Belgian Shepherd Dog Club and complete epilepsy workup was performed. Additionally, 4 healthy dogs were used as controls.
Methods
Workup included general clinical and neurological examination performed by neurology specialist. Complete blood count including cell differentiation as well as standard serum biochemistry profile was performed first in order to detect metabolic abnormalities. Electroencephalography (EEG) was performed in Domitor? 40 ?g/kg sedation. The EEG was visually examined in order to detect epileptogenic activity. Magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) was performed with 0,23 Tesla magnetic field equipment (Esaote, VetMR) in order to detect structural brain abnormalities. Cerebrospinal fluid analysis included cell count and protein concentration evaluation in order to detect inflammatory-infectious processes in the brain.
EEG was analysed by Prof. Luciana Bergamasco from the Department of Veterinary Morphophysiology, University of Torino, Italy. Magnetic resonance images were evaluated by two specialists working in diagnostic imaging field.
Results
One dog from the epileptic dog group was excluded after the general clinical and blood examination as changes in this patient indicated chronic kidney failure.
Mean age of dogs included in study was 5.5 years (range 2-13 years). Ten dogs were female (6 neutered) and 6 were male (4 castrated). Mean age at first seizure episode reported by owners was 3.1 year (range 5 months to 7 years). Predominant seizure pattern in this population was focal (16/16). Secondary generalisation was noted 11 dogs. Seizure frequency ranged between 2 episodes per month to 1 episode per year. Aggressivity to other animals or humans during and/or after seizure was reported in 10 dogs. Medication with antiepileptic medicaments was present at the time of examination in 8 epileptic dogs.
Clinical and neurological examination was normal in all epileptic and control dogs. Blood examination was within normal referral values. No brain abnormalities were detected in MRI and CSF examination. EEG examination showed changes in brain electrical activity in 15 out of 16 epileptic dogs. Focal epileptic activity was noted in 13 animals and generalised and synchronous epileptic activity in 2 dogs during visual EEG examination. No EEG changes were noted in control dogs and one epileptic dog.
Conclusion
BSD included in this study are suffering predominantly from simple or complex focal idiopatic epilepsy. Focal seizures have tendency to generalise in majority of dogs. Epileptogenic focuses were frequently localised in frontal or temporal cortical areas of brain. Aggressive behaviour was frequently noted in BSD (10/16) in present study. EEG examination proved to be sensitive in detecting epileptogenic activity in affected dogs and seems to be a useful tool in confirmation of the presence of epilepsy in BSD.
The study group would like to thank the Finnish Belgian Shepherd Dog Club for fruitful collaboration"
Veterinarians Ranno Viitmaa and Janis Jaserevic, with collaboration of Sigitas Cizinauskas

List considers 17 dogs, tervuerens and groenendaels, all examined in Vetcenter Aisti in Helsinki. Study was financed by FBSDC.

J