I don?t know of a single breeder who e.g. has falsified registration papers, used the papers of a deceased dog to smuggle an NVBK into the ST HUBERTUS registry, etc., who has been caught out, exposed, much less prosecuted. ST HUBERTUS (as well as ALL other national kennel clubs and other registration bodies) is just a paper mill and is only too happy to issue registration papers, as long as you pay.
I wouldn't go so far as to say "ALL other national kennel clubs" or say that nobody has been caught. If someone wanted to file a complaint, AKC could very well pull the papers of ALL AKC Malinois with A'Tim in their pedigree. It has happened before, I lost the papers on a Doberman I owned a number of years ago because someone filed a complaint stating that one of his ancestors pedigree had been falsified. In this case, the person making the complaint was in Germany, the breeder of the dog in question was in Australia, and the dog was a heavily used stud dog who appeared in the 4th or 5th generation of my dogs pedigree. AKC pulled paperwork on over 1000 dogs and basically told the owners "bummer for you, until we get this straightened out you just don't have papers". They were estimating it could take 5-10 years to get things straightened out and papers re-issued, if ever. Eventually the papers were returned, but it took a law suit by the owners of the dogs whose papers were pulled. This has happened in other breeds with AKC papers. They pull papers all the time on dogs because of false registrations. It just isn't usually related to a dog who has had the effect on the gene pool that the Dobe I mentioned above had. Or that other dogs could have over the next few generations.
Ja, well this just shows that she (SASKIA) doesn't understand the argument or get the point I was trying to make at all. I rest my case.
The "hanky-panky" with BSD reg. papers started with ST HUBERTUS.
After the breakaway the NVBK took some time to get organised and get a registry up-and-running and, to my knowledge, have never published a stud book. I would rather trust the info on an NVBK pedigree any day than one issued by ST HUBERTUS.
Compared to ST HUBERTUS the NVBK is a small organisation made up of mostly working class Flemish people, whose dogs and dog sport come first. Not registration certificates printed on fancy paper. They just don't have the money and the technical wherewithall to set up a complicated data base yet. But that might still come.
And most people on this forum, I'm sure, have never even heard of the KCB (Kennel Club Belge), which is older than ST HUBERTUS: http://www.kennelclub.be/
It has happened before, I lost the papers on a Doberman
Yes, and I also remember about a dozen or so years ago when people in NA couldn't get papers if their dog had G'Bibber in the first 3 generations...
But you gotta ask why...if to pull papers...it takes 'forever' to straighten it out and the manpower and research involved (ie., $$$) why not mandate DNA typing on all breeding animals? Would this not solve the problem?
This way if a puppy buyer suspects anything all they need to do is submit their pup's DNA sample, send it to the AKC for verification since they would be able to match (or not) his type to that of his parents which would be in their database.
They do this with horses and have for years...It's very practical and cost effective when one thinks about it. The costs are negligible when considering the loss (on many levels) if papers are pulled. To DNA type Jason with the AKC would be $40. It's not a huge amount and it's something that is done once for the lifetime of that dog.
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"Desire is the key to motivation, but it's the determination and commitment to an unrelenting pursuit of your goal - a commitment to excellence - that will enable you to attain the success you seek."
My comment belonged to this bit of his paragraph not with the link but I thought you guys were clever enough the follow my thoughts.
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SH/
NVBK
/FCI, etc. pedigrees are not worth the paper they are written on anyway ? and never were!!!
Whether or not it happened in the past, is the least of my concerns. What does concern me is that we are still having this discussion. I think breeders should look at themselves instead of the organizations who issue these pedigrees because you (not personally Christian, don't know you enough) are letting them. In case the story of A'Tim/Vasco is true (I am not saying it is but neither that it isn't) this would mean that the owner of A'Tims real father/mother and Dovre Fjeld did a terrible thing (could put it more harsh but I am a nice person). But what concerns me even more is that in case (this is just an example) my dog, being an offspring of A'Tim's grandson, has epilepsy how am I going to track down where it is coming from. There could have been more cases in the real litter of A'Tim or for that matter his parents. You maybe know what the real pedigree is but I don't.
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AKC pulled paperwork on over 1000 dogs and basically told the owners "bummer for you, until we get this straightened out you just don't have papers
How would you guys feel about this when all of a sudden you have no pedigree left and no longer be able to compete all just because some people were not honest in the past
I suggest you let bygones be bygones (since you cannot change the past only the future) and get it right starting now. I would not like to wind up with a dog without a pedigree like Malndobe.
Saskia
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He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
How selfish and egocentric to claim that paper are worth nothing, studbooks are just "shit"... (at least thats how I interpert Strombouts opinion, I hope I am wrong) How can we EVER build up a nice healthy breed if we dont have pedigrees/papers that can help us choose dogs to breed with.. As Saskia says, IF there are cheetings from the past, STOP cheating , there are several illnesses, HD and more that needs to be fought, how can we ever do that if breeders keep their "breedings" a secret?
"fancy database" ?? There is one at www.bloedlijnen.nl, its not fancy and probably not expensive... The Swedish Kennelclub has one where all the results, both show, and working results, are shown, thats what the fee you pay for membership goes, and also to try too keep a register ..a register that BENEFITS all people.. I dont see how someone can say that papers are not needed... To me they are priceless, as a breder I need to see (an want to see) littermates , sibblings, other offspring etc from the dogs I am going to use...as a breeder you need to have a broader perspective than just get ONE good dog to win competitions with...
This post completely contradicts all your previous statements and sentiments regarding pedigrees, registrations, etc., in which you relate the difficulties you yourself have experienced, and that through no fault of your own.
Having experienced the difficulties you have with registering NVBK dogs and Dutch Shepherds, I would have thought you would appreciate and understand what I am saying, and you should know better.
And I never said that pedigrees/registration papers are ?SHIT?. What I said is that they are worthless?and they are worthless. They are worthless in the sense that there is not a single BSD pedigree that does not have -- at the very least -- a few dozen little ?mistakes? behind the fourth generation.
There is, for example, not a single Groenendael or Tervueren whose blood has not been diluted by the infusion of Collie blood, with the aim of ?improving? the coat, making them ?prettier?, etc.
That?s why so many Groenendaels and Tervuerens today have such ugly narrow hatchet heads and their eyes so close together, never mind their weak and nervous characters and temperament. The only half decent Tervuerens today are recessives born in Malinois litters?
Only the Malinois and Laekenois have -- for the most part at least -- escaped this dilution.
"fancy database ??" - where do you get this from? Certainly not from any of my posts -- please don't misquote me or put words in my mouth. ?By the way, there are far better data basis for BSD pedigree research than www.bloedlijnen.nl. For example: http://www.alfirin.net/cdl/pedigree.html
Though "bloedlijnen" is most certainly the best for researching the pedigrees of KNPV dogs and so-called "X-Malinois".
Christian
« Last Edit: December 29, 2004, 01:45:15 PM by strombouts »
Sorry I missquoted you """Not registration certificates printed on fancy paper. They just don't have the money and the technical wherewithall to set up a complicated data base yet"""
And Of course I have problems finding good studdogs since the working DS is mostly not registered at all, but on the other hand they are also mixed with Malinois, the KNPV breeders dont seem to care a bout the breed itself, if its born striped its a DS if its yellow its a malinois...so we are just a few who are trying to breed Working DS with Pedigrees that are correct, we are several years behind "the malinois" but somebody have to start...and building the breed in an honest way....
Well I dont really understand what you mean... about the negative sides of Kennelclubs/pedigrees honestly...?? I LIKE the idea of kennelclubs, breedingclubs to keep register of the breed, to help control the breed.. I do NOT like mixbreeds, just to produce workingdogs, then we might just skip specific "breeds" and just breed "workingdogs" no matter what we cross?Skip breed standards and so on...
I do NOT however put beauty before brain, I have NO understanding for "showpeople"..running around in a circle in left direction...and just breed for looks... The Tervuren and Groenendal is destroyed as workingdogs...some are born after malinois and they have a better mentality....the GS is also destroyed and so is Collie....just because people breed for loks...and dont care of the brains in the dog...
But thats what the breedingclubs should stop, and in order to do that more "working people" need to be active in the breedingclubs, go to meetings, try to be members of the board get the "workingdogs" back their working ability...
Cheating with pedigrees and not taking part of the FCI is not the way to go....(thats what I believe) :-/
Before you read the rest this I am not trying to stur this hot debate up again but since there is soo much to be said about A?Tim and his pedigree and so on I looked into this pedigree problem.
So please people don?t get agressive again on this subject. I would be happy if one way or other is proven.
If this are fact I don?t know but I would be happy if I would get some kind of explanation on this.
Ok. I think you must be Belgian in Belgium and be inside NVBK to understand all goals they have what concerns malinois as a breed. But tell me do NVBK breeders trying to breed healthy working malinois and these X malinois just happening inadvertently or just withing NVBK you breed any malinois look dog with malinois just to have some working machine for ring sport? That would be ok, but why does A'tim need FCI papers then? Am I naive?
Best regards Marius
« Last Edit: January 02, 2005, 12:42:12 AM by marius »
ONLY NVBK registration certificates are correct and HONEST!!!!
ALL ST HUBERTUS/FCI registration certificates are false and DISHONEST!!!
For which ST HUBERTUS/FCI is entirely to blame!!!
They know all about it and have been crooking their own stud books since the very beginning of their existence?.
Regards
Chrissie
Thank you for honest answer. Yes, FCI really made problems with it. And I am really not putting down NVBK, they have their own rules and they own followers. Somehow I don?t belive that there will ever be change in FCI. Sad but true. Maybe it will be better in future.
Best regards, Raven
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Do not condemn the judgment of another because it differs from your own. You may both be wrong. ~Dandemis
Ok. I think you must be Belgian in Belgium and be inside NVBK to understand all goals they have what concerns malinois as a breed. But tell me do NVBK breeders trying to breed healthy working malinois and these X malinois just happening inadvertently or just withing NVBK you breed any malinois look dog with malinois just to have some working machine for ring sport? That would be ok, but why does A'tim need FCI papers then? Am I naive?
Best regards Marius
In over a hunderd years no other dog than a BS has become champion in BR (kennel SH and NVBK) so conclussion the best dog for the sport is a BS (more specific a Mal) there are always some fools around who try out something and breed X-mals but in NVBK it isn't common use (don't say it doesn't happen) in order to have an idea of the dogs we use check http://users.pandora.be/dogsports-nvbk-pvov/ and look at the pictures These dogs do the job, can be taken to a public place without a muzlle and are (for the most part) beautifull to look at
Why FCI papers? why not? if the dog has them and you want to broaden your potential buyers...
Author
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Would this not solve the problem? 
