You are welcome ti this forum, but this is the first and last time I tell you. Write in english, everybody dosent understand your language. If you wont correct your post, it will be erased in this days (today or tomorrow).
The second thing. Here we speak in a nice way...and dont use bad words. This I dont only say to strombouts, I tell it to everybody!
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The truth is out there, but so are the lies. - Dana Scully
Sorry, I wasn't aware we had to stick to the Queens English. I promise I'll get around to posting this in English sometime later. I'm real busy right now.
This is an argument between us Belgians -- and it goes back over a hundred years!!!
For now, save to say that this "Bjorn" should be banned from this forum -- that is if it is to have and maintain any semblance of seriousness....and it's the moderator's job to weed out people like him who come with the kind of ill informed slanderous and libelous accusations he has been posting.
So does this mean we have to be nice and polite or be banned -- while he is allowed to make and post such slanderous and libelous statements, and get away with it. His posts re: A'TIM have NOT been removed, and they should be, and that immediately.
Otherwise I'm, of course, all for freedom of speach, but what he is trying to do just doesn't qualify in my book and constitutes crimen injuria, for which the publishers could be sued...
Cheers for now
« Last Edit: December 28, 2004, 05:50:30 AM by strombouts »
I am really offended by your language. Everybody is entitled to his/her own opinion on this forum and to express this opinion. We do is such a way that we do not use foul language or use swearing language. I' ll save you the time to translate.
Quote
Beste Bjorn!!!
Heb net een half uur besteed aan het lezen van je echt achterlijke, slecht geinformeerde posts aangaande "A'TIM, SH, NVBK, enz.
Kom toch eens klaar klootzak!!!
En "Get a Life" en droog jezelf achter de oren af....!!!
Het is hoogtijd dat de ST HUBERTUS/FCI kortgekapt worden -- en dat gaat op den deur -- lang of kort -- beslist gebeuren....
Weg met de SH/FCI alleenheerschap en discriminatie!!!
Van de hele treurige SH/FCI/NVBK/NHSB/KNPV geschiedenis weet je duidelijk niks.
Ga deze hele geschiedenis een beetje navorsen en meschien zul je van gedachtes veranderen...
En het zijn vooral onze fantastische honden die er onder moeten lijden. Deze behoren tot ons kulturele erfgoed, dat door onze toenmalige Franstalige heersers "lock stock and barrel" gestolen werd...
Start of translation
Dear Bjorn,
Have just spent half an hour reading your really retarded and badly informed posts concerning Atim, SH, NVBK etc.
Get ready you b*stard!!!
And get a life and dry yourself behind the ears ...!!!!
It is about time that wings of ST HUBERTUS/FCI are clipped and this will certainly happen in the near or far future.
Away with the SH/FCI"monopoly and discrimination!!!
You clearly know nothing about the whole sad history of SH/FCI/NVBK/NHSB/KNPV.
Do a little research on this topic and maybe you change your mind...
And it are especially our fantastic dogs who suffer. They belong to our cultural heritiage, which was stolen "lock stock and barrel" by our French rulers
End translation
When you use this kind of language you should be banned from this forum if you cannot stay polite. This post was not about whether or not SH should have monopoly but whether or not A'Tim/Vasco's pedigree is correct.
Saskia
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He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
I would like to inform you that it is not my work to stop someone from writting until there is prof of his lying and so on.
So if you would like to share some prof with us I will be happy to read it until than everything on forum stays as it is.
About shuting down forum, you or anyone else CAN NOT shut this forum down. If you don?t like this forum go to one you do. There is a lot of forums for working dogs and malinois.
Further more about what someone writtes is their responsibility and they alone are responsible if it is not the truth. So if someone has to raise law suit agains anyone I belive that than that would be THE OWNER of A?tim and not you.
About A?tim, if that dog has wings and can fly 10.000 meters above earth I couldn?t care less. But since the subject of A?tim has been raised it was debated (and still is). As you can read yourself even I was participant in it. I didn?t even know who the hell A?tim was until the debate came out.
I will writte it again: ATIM IS GREAT WORKING DOG! A?TIM (from what I saw on videos) IS REALLY SPECTACULAR!
I never doubted this dogs work! And by the way Bjorn is not the first person in Europe to say things that have been said about A?tim! Check other forums, ask people arround Europe and they will tell you. It is the other thing if you belive them!
And to inform you that you are the first to use more than wrong kind of debate here so if you don?t calm down a little you will be first who is banned from this forum.
As you can see every member has profile here and there stands his/her mail so if you would like to inform Bjorn about anything use his mail.
And the last thing and this goes to everyone:
This is friendly forum, it was created from the love of Belgian Shepherd Breed! So please people calm down a little and be friendly! IF you don?t like this forum leave, go to other one if you have interests!
Best regards, Raven
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Do not condemn the judgment of another because it differs from your own. You may both be wrong. ~Dandemis
Strombouts here are the rules to which you have agreed like everyone else:
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Everyone here has agreed to all this.. so... I think it is usless to argue more about who can do what. You have in RED what you are talking about!
Best regards, Raven
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Do not condemn the judgment of another because it differs from your own. You may both be wrong. ~Dandemis
Thanks for the translation, which is fairly accurate, except that "Kom toch eens klaar klootzak!!!" most certainly doesn't mean "Get ready you b*stard!!!"
I sincerely hope you are not a translator for the diplomatic corps -- you could start a war!!!
As to the correctness or not of A'TIM's registration papers, Bjorn could and should ? if his motives were honourable -- have easily obtained this information direct from either the breeder or owner of A?TIM, SH and the NVBK. However, he is clearly out to do the reputations of Andre Vandergeten and Martine Loots and their dogs as much harm as possible. What his motives are is anyone?s guess
Instead Bjorn states so-called ?facts? and spreads "information" he admits is based on gossip, hearsay and rumours he gets from people he meets in pet shops, without even a shred of hard factual evidence.
Furthermore, he is clearly confused as regards A'TIM's ST HUBERTUS and NVBK registration papers, and what the Secretary of SH meant by his papers having been "withdrawn"....
A'TIM has ST HUBERTUS and therefore FCI recognised registration papers. He is being used as a stud on FCI recognised bitches, whose progeny in turn are SH/FCI, etc. registerable. In his posts Bjorn -- we will excuse him his poor English ? states as fact that SH has withdrawn A'TIM's SH (i.e. ALSH) registration papers, which is simply untrue. And that's that!!! ?
The entire thrust of his posts is, to say the least, disingenuous and is clearly intended to discredit A'TIM as a working dog and as a stud dog, and write off his progeny as worthless.
Anyone who reads his posts and has taken the trouble to inform themselves can only come to the conclusion that his posts are deceitful, devious, dishonest and downright slanderous.
I would be very, very careful indeed before slandering people of standing like Andre Vandergeten and Martine Loots by accusing them of fraud, which you have allowed him to do on your forum, and which makes you equally liable. Nevermind your DISCLAIMER, which has absolutely no legal standing.
By the way, I have closed down quite a few web sites in my time, from right wing racist sites to those of people who thought they could copy and publish material copyrighted by me lock stock and barrel without me finding out?.
And this sad, sorry saga has absolutely EVERYTHING to do with the ST HUBERTUS/FCI monopoly, because that?s exactly where it all begins. It?s ALL ? or at least mostly -- about the registration papers, but that is another argument?
Lastly, what has our Bjorn accomplished with and what does he know about Malinois that he thinks gives him this right!? I'll bet not much!!!
PS. Here are some choice quotes from Bjorn?s posts, with added comments from myself in []:
?Than we can throw all our FCI pedigrees away and breed with every dog we want. Pedigree or no pedigree.?
[SH/NVBK/FCI, etc. pedigrees are not worth the paper they are written on anyway ? and never were!!! A well-known example is QU'RACK DU BOIS D'EMBLISE, one of the greatest Malinois stud dogs of all time: see http://www.laughing-coyote.com/cgi-bin/geneal.pl?op=tree&index=647&gens=4&db=belgians.dbw ?hanky panky? has been going on with registration papers since the very beginning, and nothing has changed.]
?First off all i want too say Guido and Heldengebroed shut up you are only looking at your way because you are handlers within the NVBK. And you do not know what you are talking about.?
[Yes, let?s all just ?shut up? and let Bjorn have the last word.]
?Besides that many people trains with TELETAC and can't control there dog like your beloved dog A'Tim with 5 Teletacs on his body is that normal.?
[Poor A?TIM ? are you sure it?s not 10 TELETACKS Bjorn!? You should make a complaint with the Belgian Animal Protection Society!!!]
?The pedigree on bloedlijnen.nl is the wright on many people know that Eik des Deux pottois and Oscar vom L?wenfles are dogs that were bred with out an pedigree.?
[So now, thanks to Bjorn, we also know that Luc Vansteenbrugge (DES DEUX POTTOIS) and Peter Engel (VOM LOWENFELS and President of the DMC) have also committed fraud with registration papers!!!]
"I have lots off malinois pictures. Some go back as 1899 it is a picture from one off the first malinois hoo had a pedigree. And I have lots off pedigrees off Belgium shepherds i think about 155.000 pedigrees Tervueren,Groenendaeler,laekenois and malinois. So iff you want any you can ask me and i can find it for you and send you a pedigree."
[This is very helpful of Bjorn! This is Bjorn pretending to be a mine of information and having conducted original research. JISLAAIK!!! 155.000 pedigrees!!! What he would do is access these pedigrees on www.bloedlijnen.nl etc. So can you and I without consulting our ?expert? Bjorn!!! I?m sure he doesn?t have these pedigrees filed away on his shelves, and he most certainly hasn?t done or contributed to any original pedigree research.]
[Here he is fishing, pretending to be totally ignorant by feigning to be in need of advice/information.]
?I'm located in holland. I'm looking in a studdog for many things. 1. Lots off drive 2. Will too please 3. Self assured 4. A stabile character 5. A dog with an excellent bite (Full, powerfull and with a fast attack) 6. And a good pedigree 7. Mini.HD-B 8. Iff the dog has one a show Iff you want you can take a look at our site. Look on this site at kennels. Our kennel name is "Sas-van-Gent"?
[Well, I?ve had a look and Bjorn has some VERY, VERY NICE DOGS indeed. Which makes it all the more difficult for one to understand what his motives are in stirring up this debate!? He should know better and shouldn?t give a damn about registration papers. As long as you know what a particular dog?s true origin is ? and the top breeders have always been privy to this inside information -- (see QU?RACK above), who cares what?s on the LOSH/ALSH/LOF/NHSB/DMC, etc. pedigree.]
?Good Malinois Studdogs,
In my opinion there are some good malinois studdogs left example:
Klemm vom Roten Falken Utamarou Des Deux Pottois Rodin du Calvaire aux Acacias Kukay's Xjules Igor Perle de Tourbi?re Mandrack off Stone Haggler des Loups Mutin Zuulcken van Kempens Glorie Daneskjold Hasse Alf Nordhang der Eifel Ludo Perle de Tourbi?re?
[Here he gives himself away again. Why first ask for advice/info on good stud dogs (see above) when he already knows and has made his shortlist choice. It?s not meant as a compliment to him, but I happen to agree with and like his list for the most part. This is a VERY, VERY GOOD list!!! KLEMM VOM ROTEN FALKEN has died by the way, and so has HAGGLER DES LOUPS MUTIN.]
Well, I think this is more than enough for now.
NO DOUBT THE DEBATE WILL CONTINUE?.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2005, 11:39:28 PM by strombouts »
It is nice to see that you have calmed down at least a little bit.
Again about closing the site.. do you compare this site with right wing racists or with sites that are stealing material?
On Belgians World is not a word of text that has not been allowed to be putted on site from their owner and it is the same with pictures. About forum, you read the rulles.. if you didn?t it is your problem.
And you would like to close it because of ? IF you really think that we are here just to make A?tims owner a living hell and make something in your life interesting you are wrong. Like anyone else he is welcome here, he can put in his dog in OUR DOGS on site like anyone else and he can enter his kennel if he wants under BREEDERS on site.
So i guess your nice posts from before where you adress Bjorn make me liable for not erasing them because you been talking like that to Bjorn and he could sue you?
Please stop threatening us since it is pointless.
And to tell you the truth you have a lot of forums and sites to close if you are planing on doing that (I doubt you will close 1) since like I said before this has all been debated on other forums too.
What surpises me more is that you are reacting more than owner of A?tim which gets from me more respect than you ever could with things that you write. And he could convince me more in his truth than you could.
Do you really think that your way is the right way of explaining the trouth about anything? Maby you should write here like a normal person and explain what is wrong.
Like I said on chat some time ago:
I have a feeling someone is firing up this debate, it seems someone is helping to make it more explosive. Not just by sending emails and so on.
And ofcourse you can join CHAT too and maybe say a normal word to all of us.
Best regards, Raven
Logged
Do not condemn the judgment of another because it differs from your own. You may both be wrong. ~Dandemis
Well maybe you can translate the sentence yourself. Due to the nature of these posts I double checked it with the dictionary (but used less foul language as this is friendly site) and it is indeed the correct translation. Of course I cannot translate sentiment.
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I sincerely hope you are not a translator for the diplomatic corps -- you could start a war!!!
Well one thing I know for sure is that you certainly are not part of the diplomatic corps (otherwise poor country you represent) because then you would know how to express yourself without becoming insulting.
Quote
SH/NVBK/FCI, etc. pedigrees are not worth the paper they are written on anyway ? and never were!!! A well-known example is QU'RACK DU BOIS D'EMBLISE: see http://www.laughing-coyote.com/cgi-bin/geneal.pl?op=tree&index=647&a mp;gens=4&db=belgians.dbw ?hanky panky? has been going on with registration papers since the very beginning, and nothing has changed
So you agree that there are problems with NBVK papers.
Quote
So now, thanks to Bjorn, we also know that Luc Vansteenbrugge (DES DEUX POTTOIS and Peter Engel (VOM LOWENFELS and President of the DMC) have also committed fraud with registration papers!!!
Then please explain why there are 2 pedigrees from Eik des Deux Pottois on the net? And they are quiet different. I guess that a mistake is out of the question.
Quote
Here he is fishing, pretending to be totally ignorant by feigning to be in need of advice/information.
Any breeder who thinks he does not need help is a foolish breeder or knows all good studdogs is a foolish breeder. The dog world is larger than your back yard.
Quote
He should know better and shouldn?t give a d**n about registration papers
Any good breeder should worry about registration papers. If you don't, then you are (you can fill the rest yourself). If he uses a dog without the correct papers he will get into trouble. I would certainly not buy a dog without papers (even if he is the unofficial world champion).
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Why first ask for advice/info on good stud dogs (see above) when he already knows and has made his shortlist choice.
Maybe he wanted to check if he made the right choice. not a bad attitude I guess (or maybe that is just me).
Quote
KLEMM VOM ROTEN FALKEN has died by the way
Never heard of artificial insemination? Grimm van de Hoge Laer is sired a litter long after he died.
At least we can check the website of Bjorn.
Saskia
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He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
Here is my response to your post. My comments are in BOLDFACE:
?Well maybe you can translate the sentence yourself. ?Due to the nature of these posts I double checked it with the dictionary (but used less foul language as this is friendly site) and it is indeed the correct translation. ?Of course I cannot translate sentiment.?
Look, if people can?t take a little robust language ? and in this case I think that that was most certainly called for ? then that is their problem. But making slanderous statements is OK!?
A more accurate translation of "Kom toch eens klaar KLOOTZAK!!!" would be: Get finished wanking ARSHOLE!!!
Quote: I sincerely hope you are not a translator for the diplomatic corps -- you could start a war!!!
?Well one thing I know for sure is that you certainly are not part of the diplomatic corps (otherwise poor country you represent) because then you would know how to express yourself without becoming insulting.?
I wouldn?t and couldn?t be a spokesman or translator for a government, never mind be a diplomat. I despise politicians. The people in our government are all past masters in getting away with fraud, stealing tax payer?s money, and staying out of prison ? where they belong. And they insult our intelligence all the time. The same goes for the gang who run our kennel club, the KUSA, who are very good at breaking their own rules when it suits them and to accommodate their cronies.
Quote: SH/NVBK/FCI, etc. pedigrees are not worth the paper they are written on anyway ? and never were!!! A well-known example is QU'RACK DU BOIS D'EMBLISE: see ?http://www.laughing-coyote.com/cgi-bin/geneal.pl?op=tree&index=647&a mp;a mp;gens=4&db=belgians.dbw ? ?hanky panky? has been going on with registration papers since the very beginning, and nothing has changed
?So you agree that there are problems with NBVK papers.?
The ?hanky-panky? with BSD registration papers began already in the very beginning, with dogs registered with St HUBERTUS. For your info QU?RACK was registered with LOF and LOSH registration papers. He was never registered with the NVBK.
Quote: So now, thanks to Bjorn, we also know that Luc Vansteenbrugge (DES DEUX POTTOIS and Peter Engel (VOM LOWENFELS and President of the DMC) have also committed fraud with registration papers!!!
?Then please explain why there are 2 pedigrees from Eik des Deux Pottois on the net? ?And they are quiet different. ?I guess that a mistake is out of the question.?
Here I am merely pointing out that, if Bjorn?s claims are true!? ? then Peter Engel, who is President of the German Malinois Club, has committed fraud, and should then be in jail like his sidekick Volker Riedel (www.teutones.de), who is in prison in France for fraud?idem Luc Vansteenbrugge of the famous DES DEUX POTTOIS kennel, now retired from breeding. Luc was also the founder of MONDIORING. I don?t give a tinker?s damn about the pedigrees. These are/were great breeders, great dogs and great stud dogs, and produced great progeny. That?s what really matters. A wanker like Bjorn can never hope to emulate these great breeders and their dogs. As I said, this has been going on since the very beginning of registrations, and will continue, so long as the national kennel clubs and the FCI have a monopoly on registering internationally recognised dogs?
Quote: Here he is fishing, pretending to be totally ignorant by feigning to be in need of advice/information.
?Any breeder who thinks he does not need help is a foolish breeder or knows all good studdogs is a foolish breeder. ?The dog world is larger than your back yard.?
NO, he?s fishing to lure people to make suggestions he can then pick on.
Quote: He should know better and shouldn?t give a d**n about registration papers
Any good breeder should worry about registration papers. ?If you don't, then you are (you can fill the rest yourself). ?If he uses a dog without the correct papers he will get into trouble. ?I would certainly not buy a dog without papers (even if he is the unofficial world champion).
I?m afraid that you are a little na?ve. I?ll bet that the very dogs you own have at least some false info somewhere back in their pedigrees, if not on the 4 generation pedigree you were given by the breeder. I don?t know of a single breeder who e.g. has falsified registration papers, used the papers of a deceased dog to smuggle an NVBK into the ST HUBERTUS registry, etc., who has been caught out, exposed, much less prosecuted. ST HUBERTUS (as well as ALL other national kennel clubs and other registration bodies) is just a paper mill and is only too happy to issue registration papers, as long as you pay. The whole A?TIM registration saga proves this beyond question?. The administrators, whether ST HUBERTUS or any other national kennel club don?t and never have cared. In fact they know full well what has been going on right from the beginning.
In a next post I might relate a case here in South Africa I know of, of a Malinois registered with the pedigree of a deceased dog. How this happened, why it happened, who was to blame, and the consequences? Then you might understand why I get just a little hot under the collar when fingers are pointed at the BREEDERS when the KENNEL CLUBS are entirely to blame?and why a debate on this subject needs to get more serious and focus on the real culprits: the KENNEL CLUBS.
Quote: Why first ask for advice/info on good stud dogs (see above) when he already knows and has made his shortlist choice.
Maybe he wanted to check if he made the right choice. ?not a bad attitude I guess (or maybe that is just me).
Again, I think you are being just a little na?ve.
Quote: KLEMM VOM ROTEN FALKEN has died by the way
Never heard of artificial insemination? ?Grimm van de Hoge Laer is sired a litter long after he died.
Of course I know about AI. I was merely passing on the info that KLEMM has passed away. He was a great dog, but nowhere near as good as, for example, a CLIP, G?BIBBER, or ELGOS DU CHEMIN DES PLAINES.
At least we can check the website of Bjorn.
Well, don?t hold your breath.
Christian
« Last Edit: December 30, 2004, 12:12:51 AM by strombouts »
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