Saskia "In the early days FCI decided to only accept one organization per country and for Belgium that is SH. The problems nowadays with the NVBK pedigree is a problem created by NVBK."
In early days there was no NVBK, it was created not until 1963 and FCI decided to co-operate with SH in start of century. NVBK was formed baecause of disagrees between ring sport people in sixties, then they decided also to start registering their own dogs.
KCB is older than SH, between those FCI made a choice 100 years ago.
My apologies for the error but my opinion still remains the same. NVBK then certainly should not have started to issue pedigrees they should have left it with SH.
Then it would have been up to the breeders if they wanted to follow the rules of SH and obtain pedigrees for their dogs or breed dogs without a pedigree (this does not mean that dogs with a SH pedigree are any less than dogs with SH pedigree). It would have certainly prevented a lot of confusion.
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He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
I have written an email too SH about A'tim and they have confirmd me that they took his NVBK Pedigree back and he isn't anymore a NVBK dog. Because a dog have 2 pedigrees is not acceptable. Besides that I wonder my self something! Wy does a man that does promote NVBK is better than everything else and SH dogs are not so good. Why does he has an FCI-dog ? Can you explain that, while than is your dog allso a bad dog isn't it. Or does the NVBK take now FCI-dogs with in the NVBK to make there dogs better. Iff i am lying look at Johan's website. His dog is only and only FCI des Deux Pottois and du Boscaille. The best bloodlines there are. You wrote it, not me! He speaks bad about these fci dogs and he has one off his own, he works with it in NVBK ring, while he stopt with SH ring. This is for me beneeth my level and there for is this man disqualifiat for me as a subject partner. These are my final words about the subject A'Tim. Maney people seen my prove and so the dissicion is at you what you believe or not.
First of all
Thank you for the publicity for may website and i never have hidden the fact that i have a dog with FCI papers (i hinted at that in a awnser the 16th october)I have chosen the dog and not the papers if he had NVBK papers i would have bought him anyhow.
Secondly
Can you explain me how an organisation that doesn't recognise a second organisation have any say over documents issued by the latter? I don't get it maybe i'm not smart enough
Tirthly
If you look at my awnsers to this topic you will find that i stated from the beginning that i am against fraud.
Fourthly
It is easy to accuse someone of something but if asked you have to back it up. Your 'evidence' has holes in it large enough to let pass an elephant. I only pointed them out. And don't forget in our society (and i believe that the Netherlands are a part of western society) someone is innocent untill proven guilty.
Fifthly
I never insulted you or anyone but have been told to shut up etc. I never went personal either. But seeing your website (by the way; why is this information not mentioned in your profile) i can assure you that, given your point of view in this topic, it would be easy.
Sixtly
I would act the same if it was your dog we were discussing or even mine.
Sevently
If you're so anctious to prove that A'tim isn't the dog he is supposed to be why don't you ask for a DNA test of a known son and his supposed father or a son of this dog. I think Saskia knows more about the procedures than i do
It proves how much sh is concerned with the truth about the pedigrees.
So don't you find it hard as a NVBK lover, to pay double the price for a puppy when you know that the pedigree isn't correct.
P.S. I'm not talking about your Vjeko son.
And I would like to say I also like the NVBK dogs.
But when I want to use one of them for breeding. It has to go by the rules.
regards
JVG
That's an honest awnser, I which there were more of them around
People pay the price they want and if they want a son/daughter of the dog A'tim they will pay. Given the track record of A'tim i think that they want the same kind of dog and the papers come second, they see themselves on the podium but they forget that behind this there are years of training in which much can go wrong. I always bought a dog and not a paper. as it turns out untill now i have been lucky. My attitude towards this may change in the future.
As i stated from the beginning that i'm against fraud so i can only aplaud your attitude
Are A'tims parents (both specified on FCI and NVBK pedigree) alive?
Saskia
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He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
I don't know. But when i wrote this DNA testing thing i was thinking about something i heard about christofer colombusses remains and the tests they are doing to verify that the reamins are his and this with DNA from living relatives. i'm no expert
I'm not going to say much, because I'm getting sick of always reacting to this kind of spam.
Why is there such a thing as JEALOUSY???
I'm not going to start to defend my dog or trying to prove his quality, because Tim already DID THAT HIMSELF!
It is a super dog and a super producer (offspring on the site prove this).
Bjorn:
1. only 1 litter with teeth problems out of many litters, does this say anything about the male? A'Tim has perfect teeth and so have my 3 A'Tim sons and all offspring I personally know (and they are many).
2. Everybody who knows the BR program knows why the dog hesitated at the first K?rung test. In BR he simply isn't allowed to bite at this stage. He HAS to wait until there is physical contact with the handler. The judges also realised this and that's why they asked for a second test the next year.
3. Pups with nervous bites?? Maybe so. The first stud that always produces perfect offspring still has to be born (and surely never will be). Only thing I can say is that the % of good offspring is very high with many different females.
Well, I hope 1 thing: that you'll ever be able to bring a dog to top level and win important titles. Then you'll know how much time and effort this costs. And how much joy at the result. But then you'll surely know also how it feels when some people react on this success and try to bring it down.
I think it would be better for them to spend this time on TRAINING in stead.
Workingmalinois as everyone is welcome here so are you so welcome to our forum!
It is nice to see that the owner of A?tim came and gave us his opinion on the matter but I don?t understand why didn?t you writte anything about pedigree since pedigree and (as I get it) sire of A?tim is questionable?
I am not jelous, I am not that much into work and titles don?t mean much to me. But questions have been raised and with dogs people are suspicious.
??tim may very well be the "one in a million" but could very well be xmal and if he is xmal ofcourse you wouldn?t come to forum and wrote down: "Yes his pedigree is fake!".
And I am not trying to provoke you or anything I am just curious. So take it as curiosity and interest. I don?t get it why others didn?t ask you questions here but it might just be christmass.
Best regards, Raven
Almoust forgot so I am adding it now.. you should check other topics in Malinois thread since a?tim is poping up in almoust in every thread.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2004, 07:09:47 PM by Raven »
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Do not condemn the judgment of another because it differs from your own. You may both be wrong. ~Dandemis
Don?t worry, you don?t have to inform me about threads on other boards :-) As soon as there is a thread on a board, anywhere on the web, we know this right away. It doesn?t take a single day, before someone alerts me of it :-) And I am a member to almost every malinois board, so believe me I read them all ;-) However I usually don?t react, because the discussions aren?t worth the effort  Moreover this would mean that I'm doing just the same thing as they do and my self respect doesn't allow this.
Nevertheless, this right of answer to some of the statements in several threads:
Statement 1: In one of the messages someone stated that it couldn?t be about ?jealousy? because there were threads on many boards in many different languages.
What if al these discussions were started by the same 2 frustrated people???
Statement 2: Tim?s offspring isn?t good enough for IPO?
There have been very few breedings in IPO (Ring is our sport remember).
But some results of his offspring there:
- Zeroh: Austrian Champion IPO3 2003 and 2004. 11th place at the World Championships - N-litter of Satansberg: 4 males (1 SCH3 at 20 months, 1 SCH3, 1 SCH2 and 1 Policedog) - Q-Litter of Satansberg: 4 males and 1 female. 1 SCH3 and Youngest service dog in Berlin, 2 SCH2, and a titled Rescue Dog (these dogs have just turned 2yrs old) - T-Litter of Satansberg: Just 1 year old and great future (just check the Satansberg homepage) - Bert Aerts (World Champion IPO) used Tim with Assi and was very satisfied with the quality too
I?m pretty glad with these results but of course it could be that I?m too easily satisfied :-)
Statement 3: Tim never attended a beauty show??
I seem to remember however that I presented him myself in Kortrijk and in Courcelles (but of course maybe I have hallucinations :-)). Comments of the judge were: Little bit too less mask (I agree) Chest too wide (he is a sport dog and all muscles) Coat a little too short (could be) Happy tail and too dominant attitude :-)) Plus he has been judged twice at the K?rung by the most experienced German judges. For K3 you need at least ?very good?. So Bjorn is stating that these judges don?t know their job??? Just take a look at my boy on the homepage and you can see for yourself that he is not a show type but certainly is very malinois typical and certainly not a cross. Some of his sons could easily be presented at a show even if they are working dogs (take a look at Zeroo Belgium) His son Conan van Tessiny?s won a beauty show in Denmark.
As to his papers I don?t see why I have to do some kind of declaration. When people want to make a fuzz about it then this is their problem.
I have a dog that is recognized by FCI with an official hips certificate (A-rating) and show certificates.
And I also know that we have a great dog for training and as a companion. Plus, thanks to Tim we also have 2 very good sons to take over the job when he?ll retire. To US he is a one in a million dog and I couldn?t care less about what other people think.
Conclusion:
It is SO EASY to talk down on someone or on someone?s dog, but who is giving you the RIGHT to do this?? I read fantastic comments about other stud dogs, while I?ve seen or heard completely other things about these very same dogs. Do I have to react? NO, I?m not entitled to do this and I don?t WANT to do this. The same dog that I would call a softy, can be the perfect dog for someone else, so who am I to start attacking it? Everybody should keep their eyes open and look for themselves when they want a pup! If they take the right decision this is perfect and if they were wrong then they?ll know for the future.
Again I have to say "I am sorry about starting this mess!!" I asked the questions and I got my answers and to me it looks like alot of people are being miss lead. I think we can see why.
Heb net een half uur besteed aan het lezen van je echt achterlijke, slecht geinformeerde posts aangaande "A'TIM, ST HUBERTUS, NVBK, stamboomen, enz.
En "Get a Life" en droog jezelf achter de oren af....!!!
Het is hoogtijd dat de ST HUBERTUS/FCI kortgekapt worden -- en dat gaat op den deur -- lang of kort -- beslist gebeuren....
Weg met de ST HUBERTUS/FCI alleenheerschap en discriminatie!!!
Van de hele treurige ST HUBERTUS/FCI/NVBK/NHSB/KNPV geschiedenis ben je duidelijk nog niet goed geinformeerd.
Ga deze hele geschiedenis een beetje navorsen en meschien zul je een beetje van gedachten veranderen...
En het zijn vooral onze fantastische honden die er onder moeten lijden. Deze behoren tot ons kulturele erfgoed, dat door onze toenmalige Franstalige heersers "lock stock & barrel" gestolen werd...
« Last Edit: December 29, 2004, 11:37:49 PM by strombouts »
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