The improvement or fall of Malinois

[Pete Mitchell]

BTW...Congrats on your job/posting! All the best to you and stay safe!

B[/b]

Thank you.? Next stop K9 program!!!

>>I think you are a kick in the pants. If we ever meet I promise I will buy you a beer and we can sit down and laugh about this Grin I will try to get that video up for you.

Thanks Christian! lol

I've always loved discussing and exchanging info with you! BUT

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I PREFER WINE!

B

Wine it will be then. Take care and good luck with Qain.

           Christian

[Raven]

Raven

This reply is for you? ? The? little lakenois who's picture had to be removed, was 100% laekenois with NO COLLIE or any other breed mixed in.....In fact she has had DNA done ;-) there is a black & tan gene that is recessive and it is in the Belgian breed and pops up from time to time.? In fact, a year ago a Groen breeding had 2 such colorings show up.......





Barbara

Hi!

Do you see me claim that laekenois on picture has collie in it? I said dog LOOKS tricolor.
 
Probably that tervueren and collie thingy got you that idea... Sentance about collies and tervs was to remind us that like work so did show people do some "questionable" breeding.

Bye, Raven

[workingmalinois]

his I disagree with. We always try to place a personalty to either nature or nurture. The vast experiecnces, emotions, phases, and lessons, how they learn them is so great. I defintly think that we can set a dog up to be confindent. I was kind of a nerd, and timid through school. after I graduated I began to gain confidence. Eventually I won some prestigous titles in kickboxing. today, I work as a rescue worker out at sea on helo crew. This condindence was defintly not in my nature was built. I have been put under emmence amounts of stress and did not collapse. I do not think dogs are to different. We greatly have an affect on how they view themselves and the world around them.

I am with you here. While in the police academy, I gained alot of confidence by my instuctors skillfully stressing me, teaching me to deal with that stress, and come out a "winner". Almost exactly what dog training is.

Guess we are talking about completely other things here....

I agree with you that you can partly solve a dog's stress and build confidence by proper training, but this isn't what I'm talking about.  A dog showing these characteristics wouldn't get any credit at all and I wouldn't even consider training it.

What I was talking about was the stress factor coming from THE HANDLER that the dog has to be able to take.
I was talking about starting with a 100% powerhouse dog with every quality you can imagine.  In the beginning the control has to be there but you don't have to go very deep.  But a hard character dog will surely get in overdrive and try to do it his way (which means "bite, bite, bite" and no "out" ).
Well also this dog has to be controlled and follow orders IMMEDIATELY and UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES.  To achieve this you usually have to be very hard on him and in a way "crack him".
What we mean by "stress resistance" is that a dog has to be able to get over it immediately and keeps doing his work with the same drive and enthusiasm.  ANd he has to be able to do this over and over again.
No way you can solve this with training.  It has to be there genetically.

One thing for sure; there is no level of stress higher than a threat to someone's personal saftey. To compare the stress of ANY sport to that is completly ridiculous. Stay safe out there brother.

This is true, but this is stress coming from a third party.  Dog and handler are at the same side here.
This shouldn't be a problem to a good dog.

With all due respect Martine, I may not be at your level as a trainer but I have been a training decoy for almost 10 years now. Moving your arm in prey motion, looking a dog in the eye, and tapping him on the back with a stick amounts to immense pressure? I have only seen your videos and others on some breeder's websights but this seems to be the work while the dog is on the bite. BR is a stressful sport for sure but I don't see huge amounts of stress from the decoy. I believe this is one of the reasons the really hard dogs are successful. I think a FR decoy letting loose with the stick or a few of the PSA scenarios could cause a big problem with the out for these dogs. Just an opinion of course.

Just don't move at all as a decoy bend over the dog dominantly and look him right in the eye.  These are the most difficult outs for a hard dog whereas a weak dog will lose confidence.  A lot of screaming and moving is easier for the weaker dogs and mostly easier for the out too.

[Christopher_Smith]

Guess we are talking about completely other things here....

I agree with you that you can partly solve a dog's stress and build confidence by proper training, but this isn't what I'm talking about.? A dog showing these characteristics wouldn't get any credit at all and I wouldn't even consider training it.

Are you saying that the dogs you are training now never are NEVER stressedby the handler?

[workingmalinois]

Are you saying that the dogs you are training now never are NEVER stressedby the handler?

Of course they are, but they have to be able to take this, like I explained here (see quote below)

What I was talking about was the stress factor coming from THE HANDLER that the dog has to be able to take.
I was talking about starting with a 100% powerhouse dog with every quality you can imagine.  In the beginning the control has to be there but you don't have to go very deep.  But a hard character dog will surely get in overdrive and try to do it his way (which means "bite, bite, bite" and no "out" ).
Well also this dog has to be controlled and follow orders IMMEDIATELY and UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES.  To achieve this you usually have to be very hard on him and in a way "crack him".
What we mean by "stress resistance" is that a dog has to be able to get over it immediately and keeps doing his work with the same drive and enthusiasm.  ANd he has to be able to do this over and over again.
No way you can solve this with training.  It has to be there genetically.

The paragraph you quoted from me was referring to Gunny's post.
Gunny was talking about the fact that stress coming from external situations could be solved by proper training (which is correct).
My reaction was that I only want to start with a dog that doesn't get affected by external stress.

[Matty-J]

Back to the original topic.

Has anyone seen this?

http://www.finographics.com/schutzhund/interviews/bartbellon.html

About 2/3 down the article is this exchange:

"Are your dogs registered?  No. The Belgians have for a long time mixed many breeds together in the Malinois. To me the Malinois is the working shepherd of Belgium. The dog I won the championships with in 1992, Flip, was a Malinois and German Shepherd mix. He was a very good dog. I think this is the best system for making really good working dogs. "

The interview is a converstation between Michael Ellis and Bart Bellon.

-Matt

[Saskia]

I just wonder why people would mix dogs if it didn't deliver good dogs.  Is the only reason money and proximity of good stud dogs?

Saskia

[Matty-J]

I should have clarified the above exchange.



Michael Ellis asked Bart 

"Are your dogs registered?"

Bart Bellon replied          

"No. The Belgians have for a long time mixed many breeds together in the Malinois. To me the Malinois is the working shepherd of Belgium. The dog I won the championships with in 1992, Flip, was a Malinois and German Shepherd mix. He was a very good dog. I think this is the best system for making really good working dogs."

[Bjorn]

Hello

Bart Bellon doesn't train malinois with FCI papers he trains in the NVBK and this club is not recognized by the FCI(Workingmalinois no afence).
Iff you Cross breed you get possitive and the negative part with in these dogs. For example malinois with a german shepperd you can get good grips and stability in the nerveus from the german shepperd but allso if the germanshepperd has illnes in her or his bloodlines you get those to. The same is with this stupid mixed breeding in the US with Amer.stafford. You get weak ears so you must cut the ears and some to much agressiveness.
This has allways been the problem in the US because there is no watch on what people breed so don't start we are doing here in Europe.
There was allso meantioned that of a tervueren was mixed with Colle that is true but you got allso the problems from the collie a little frightend and offcourse what nobody wants to know Epilepsie.
The same goes for the Groenendael.
Iff you look at old pictures from the 1900 the Tervueren from then are totaly different dogs then from today, the only dogs that came near this picture are tervueren from malinois bloodlines.
I think there are good enough dogs now living for getting a better breed instead off mixed breeding with other breeds.
The people in the US allways wants it bigger better and in the end nothing a load off problems.
Iff you want better dog over there do something about the breeding and don't mixed breed, it is stupid to say:"oh it looks like a mal and it works like a mal so it is an malinois."
People who do such things should get banned for life to have dog.
It is not making an a breed better instead it is making a breed worse.
Allso did you know that it is forbidden to use dogs inside the KNPV who have stafford or bullterrier blood.
I think sculpadog know this better then I do( i mean the rules). What do yo want to do with these kind off dogs you can not start at international events like shows, IPO world Championship, Mondio-ring, french-ring, belgium ring St.Hubert, i don't know how this is with the NVBK.
It is B.S. and an F.... stupid idea.
Greatings
Bjorn