The improvement or fall of Malinois

[malndobe]

If we have black Mals and Tervs that come from Mal breedings, and the interbreeding of Belgian Shepherds still happens. If so the Malinios is not a "purebreed"

Outside of the AKC, the Malinois itself is not a breed, but a variety of a breed.? The Belgian Shepherd is the breed, the varieties are Tervuren, Groenendael, Malinois and Laekenois.? So having a Black "Mal", a Terv from Mals,? or even breeding a Malinois to a Tervuren doesn't mean anything about lack of purety of the dogs, just that you got a different coat/color than the parents, or combined different coat/colors.? Like a Red Dobe from a Black sire and a Blue dam.? Still a Dobe.? Or a black long coated GSD from two Bi-Color short coated parents.? Still a GSD.? The Dobes, GSD, etc just haven't attached actual names to the varieties like people have for the Belgians.?

Just for fun, this dog is a purebred Belgian Shepherd, although you might not realized it at first glance

Picture removed because owner contacted us regarding copyrights

[Beausmom]

Yes! that is a Belgian and a Laekenois ;-) would you like to know her name?










Barbara

[Pete Mitchell]

Sorry guys I screwed up on the link for the Belschik video. Try this http://www.daelenberghutte.be/

hope this works. It really is worth checking out.

[ultramal]

Brigita--Your last two posts show your mastery of BS and taking other people's words and making them your own and God bless you for it. It is what I like about you. Remember now; just good natured teasing.

Absolutely Christian !  You know that we've spoken often enough for me not to take things personally!  As a matter of fact...I'm truly enjoying the exchange! It's actually an excellent topic and it's wonderful to see so much input from so many!

So you agree that crosses are frequently done by the Dutch?

Absolutely.  The vast majority of time if we're talking of KNPV...Then YES....I would estimate it to be in excess of 90%.

And your last comment; come on now that's just too much. There are alot of KNPV DS with Met Lof.

Not nearly as the number of so called Mals (crosses) which hold KNPV titles.  BTW...when I said 'sport'........I wasn't speaking of KNPV....Most Dutch would roll over if you compared or labeled their police certification program as a 'sport'; or put it in the same category as the established sports like BR, IPO, FR, MR etc....   They would tell you it's like comparing apples to oranges.  It's not a competition.  But a certification program....Nothing more, nothing less.  As well the Dutch would also tell you that in a given DS/Mal litter......Typically, there's a higher probability of the 'brown pups' working out than the 'brindle' pups...Why?  They don't know.  'That's just how it is' I was told.  So just something to ponder. 

We all know that most of these are DS x Mal x who knows what. I believe Terry Davis imported quite a few dogs from Holland and was quite successful in ring sport with them. I'm sure not all were "purebred" but I can't be sure.

Well I beg to differ....How do you measure success? 

I know Terry well enough and have seen as well as competed against his dogs...99% (could even have been 100%) of the dogs which I have seen Terry handle possessed FCI paperwork and were considered by all intents and purposes to be 'pure'.  The BEST dog Terry ever imported which made his mark in FR was Marko (in the last 5 yrs).  And he is a pure Mal and registered.  I had never seen Terry compete with a blue dog scorebook.

How about Police Dog competitions? Robert Wadman won four NAPD championships in a row. ( The highlight of my career was losing to him in a PSA trial by 3 points with a 5 point handler error) His dogs were PDT lines, so purebred? Not sure of what his current competiton dogs are. OJ Knighten has had at least two KNPV DS crosses that titled in PSA.

Can't comment on this one...as I haven't met the gentlemen nor seen their dogs compete.  To say anything else would be unfair and uninformed on my part.  But I can comment on the comparison or putting in non-traditional sports in the same category as the traditional, long established ones....The former tend to crop up in NA overnight and tend to change in their structure/point system/exercises  from what seems like one year to the next...Let's not compare sports which have been around (some of which aren't anymore) for 5-10 yrs vs those long proven and traditional ones (most of which are internationally acknowledged) which have been around for over 100 yrs.  Apples and oranges IMO.  Again I am NOT saying that crosses cannot be 'good working dogs'......But the examples you are giving are a 'minority' and an exception to the rule.

If we have black Mals and Tervs that come from Mal breedings, and the interbreeding of Belgian Shepherds still happens. If so the Malinios is not a "purebreed" so how could the cross of something else be the downfall of the Malinios?

Sure it is.  The Malinois is not a BREED per se...It is a VARIETY of a Breed.  There are 4 varities to this Breed; which is the Belgian Shepherd.  The emphasis or differentiation comes in the coat differences/genes.  So anything else crossed into it........would be a downfall to the VARIETY (given the original question)....Then it is no longer a BELGIAN SHEPHERD.  Crossing does nothing for the Belgian Shepherd....However, many have considered (and done) this to help improve THEIR breed.

I have asked the Dutch....why the crosses......Some were very honest and said it was cheaper and no headaches with registrations....Others have said that the Malinois blood is what gave the workability (and health in some cases) to the rest........NOT the other way around.....And when asked what the DS brought to the table.... a few said it contributed to the Mal's (crosses) size for their program.......but that was all.  And they also stated that countless were washed out (those we don't hear about)........And that it 'was not a big deal' as they were CHEAP to replace.  And we have to be honest w/ourselves.......On this side of the pond.....There have been many disapointed with their titled acquisitions.........ie., didn't do stairs, slick floors, didn't out, control probs, handler aggression  etc....Yet they all possessed a PH title.

You mentioned previously about the best national security dogs being these crosses/KNPV dogs...........I beg to differ on this as well (we have to look deeper than the exterior).........I think one has to understand the various philosophies........For MOST KNPV people this is a business....Get a pup...train it for 3 yrs...sell it.......and then start all over.........So of course you are going to get more dogs from that source than you will from other sources.  That is their GOAL.  Sport people will spend 5 yrs training a dog and that dog will stay with them as they continue to compete........This is all relative.  If one understands the true essence of each program........It is logical to expect more KNPV dogs being imported for those purposes than any other.  Certainly doesn't mean they are superior to others.

I enjoyed the exchange Christian (as always)   Thanks!

[Raven]

Brigita--Your last two posts show your mastery of BS and taking other people's words and making them your own and God bless you for it. It is what I like about you. Remember now; just good natured teasing.

Absolutely Christian !? You know that we've spoken often enough for me not to take things personally!? As a matter of fact...I'm truly enjoying the exchange! It's actually an excellent topic and it's wonderful to see so much input from so many!

Hi!

This is what I like! Different points of view and still normal debate. We will never change eachothers views since how we look at it shows who we are.

Lakenois on pic looks tricolor. Collie tricolor..?

We somehow jumped to working dogs but there was (at least what in dark corners is whispered) also some adding of Collie to Tervueren for longer coat. Well that comes up with show vs. work thing.. yes we added this but you guys added that.. 

Bye, Raven

[workingmalinois]

That just seems like an awfully high figure. How is it that you know for sure? Are you a breed warden for KNPV? I only question this because I have worked and seen a decent number of police dogs imported from Holland that seem to have other things bred into them. Maybe they only sell these dogs to the US?

Well, we are in Europe over here and this means ?malinois area?.  And this means a lot of good breeding stock and a lot of experienced handlers in all kinds of disciplines.
On top of that, experience in ring sport since the seventies and knowledge of almost all bloodlines inside and outside Belgium.
And last but not least.  We know a lot of top trainers out of other disciplines personally and many of them became friends, so ?yes, we have inside information?.

My knowlege of Belgian Ring is limited so I don't know if any other breeds are successful.

No, the Mal is the only breed capable of doing the program and the Mal sure doesn?t need input of other breeds to achieve this (and this doesn?t mean people haven?t tried it with other breeds)

I could not copy a link for the video but go to- http://www.daelenberghutte.be/- then go to "our dogs". At the bottom of the females there is a link to a Belschik video. Everyone should check it out, it's really worth seeing.
Assuming he was environmentlly strong, I have seen a son and a daughter that were, I think he could have given it a run.

I don?t know the dog, so I can?t judge it, but a GSD, no matter how strong character couldn?t do BR, because he physically isn?t able to.
I?ve seen awesome good GSD (I?m talking here for instance of Tom vh Leefdaalhof ? World Champion and very strong dog) but they just weren?t bred to do the heavy BR jumps.

2. White Lightning's Bruno, American Bulldog- BST2, NPL2, PSA2 and many other titles I can't recall.

This dog was awesome. I was one of his training decoys for 5 years. He could have done anything. Not saying he would have beat Mals in BR but did several times in PSA and NAPD. He was a dog I would have wanted for the real life situation.

3. Bruno-  I believe he was PH1, not sure,Sacramento County Sheriff Department, many, many live street bites.This is the dog I was talking about that no doubt had Pitt in it. I was a training decoy for him for 1 year. He jumped up on an 8' tin roof shack and bit me on an area search, I saw him do helicopter deployment, go through fire, apprehension in a river while swimming, I could go on and on.

Same here.  Don?t know them so I?m not going to judge.

I believe these dogs could have made a very good showing in BR, or any dog sport for that matter. You may not know of these dog but there is a big wide world outside of BR.

I do think you are underestimating BR and the heavy training + extreme control & mental pressure there is behind it.  Please don?t compare it to PSD and NAPD.
There are thousands of dogs over here having the qualities you describe.  They?d all make great personal protection or police dogs.  However, put them under constant control and heavy mental pressure and believe me, there won?t be many left at the finish?

You mentioned previously about the best national security dogs being these crosses/KNPV dogs...........I beg to differ on this as well (we have to look deeper than the exterior).........I think one has to understand the various philosophies........For MOST KNPV people this is a business....Get a pup...train it for 3 yrs...sell it.......and then start all over.........So of course you are going to get more dogs from that source than you will from other sources.  That is their GOAL.  Sport people will spend 5 yrs training a dog and that dog will stay with them as they continue to compete........This is all relative.  If one understands the true essence of each program........It is logical to expect more KNPV dogs being imported for those purposes than any other.  Certainly doesn't mean they are superior to others.

Couldn't have said it better B 

[Pete Mitchell]

B--This is a great thread. I to love healthy debates. Especially with such worthy " opponents" I am at a slight disadvantage because of the knowlege and experience you ladies have in your various diciplines. Both you and Martine have taught me alot on this board. I do wonder sometimes if that goes both ways.

I finally got my job. Got the call today, start July 1.

I want to go on record again that I am really playing 'devil's advocate" with this whole thing. I stated before I prefer the Belgian/French lines over the Dutch but there are many here in the US who favor the Dutch dogs. For the rest of my life I will probably have "purebred dogs". Just not an elite-ist (sp?) to think something can't be improved upon or some breed is unable to contribute something to another.

 I guess I am like Raven says--My priority is a "working machine" a dog I can trust to save my ass in a real situation, even if it was a poodle? although it will probably be a French/Belgian line Mal. I have always loved Biology and Genetics. When I was in 8th grade I took a Zoology class. My semester experiment was to see if I could breed a rat with a hampster and what probable traits would be seen in the resulting offspring. Didn't work; the rats killed and ate the hampsters over spring break.

I must say one thing that really bothers be is when people downplay other sporting disciplines. Any sport needs at least a decent dog and alot of time and effort from the handler. To downplay any sport is kind of disrespectful to those who work hard at it.

I thought talking different sports or breeds succeeding in sports was off topic. Seeing as these are the venues to demostrate dogs abilities maybe not.

No, the Mal is the only breed capable of doing the program and the Mal sure doesn?t need input of other breeds to achieve this (and this doesn?t mean people haven?t tried it with other breeds)

There has never been another breed that earned a BR1? How about any other titles? I would think with all the great Belgian line GSD's that someone would have done it. GSD stuff is pretty complicated and SCH/IPO is a must for SV sanctioned breedings so maybe that plays a role.

I don?t know the dog, so I can?t judge it, but a GSD, no matter how strong character couldn?t do BR, because he physically isn?t able to.
I?ve seen awesome good GSD (I?m talking here for instance of Tom vh Leefdaalhof ? World Champion and very strong dog) but they just weren?t bred to do the heavy BR jumps.

Are the BR jumps higher or longer than FR, if so by how much? I know there are FR3 GSD's and a few even make it to Selectiffs. So I don't see the jumps being a problem except for the larger one's 85+lbs. On of the reasons I used Belschik as an example is he was not a really big dog. He was fast and agile.I don't think he was more than 75lbs. His offspring that I have seen are not really big dogs either. My girlfriend is a GSD girl and I am going to buy her a pup from a Belschik daughter.

2. White Lightning's Bruno, American Bulldog- BST2, NPL2, PSA2 and many other titles I can't recall.
This dog was awesome. I was one of his training decoys for 5 years. He could have done anything. Not saying he would have beat Mals in BR but did several times in PSA and NAPD. He was a dog I would have wanted for the real life situation.

3. Bruno- I believe he was PH1, not sure,Sacramento County Sheriff Department, many, many live street bites.This is the dog I was talking about that no doubt had Pitt in it. I was a training decoy for him for 1 year. He jumped up on an 8' tin roof shack and bit me on an area search, I saw him do helicopter deployment, go through fire, apprehension in a river while swimming, I could go on and on.

I do think you are underestimating BR and the heavy training + extreme control & mental pressure there is behind it. Please don?t compare it to PSD and NAPD.
There are thousands of dogs over here having the qualities you describe. They?d all make great personal protection or police dogs. However, put them under constant control and heavy mental pressure and believe me, there won?t be many left at the finish?

Actually, everything I have learned about BR is from you, your videos, and Brigita. I don't think I am underestimating it and fully respect it. I just don't think it is head and shoulders above any other sport, just different. What exactly is the mental pressure that is more than other sports?(Other than the length of the program but is it longer than FR3?) From what I have seen it seems most of the pressure is environmental. Pressure doesn't seem to come from the decoys with the light stick taps. Is the basket guard somehow more stress than FR? If so, how? Besides environmental stuff, is the OB more difficult or judged more strictly than IPO? How is it more stressful than say a police dog going under a house to fight a 250lb man who is on PCP? Maybe answering these questions could help me to understand BR superiority? Being under constant control is stressful but to me more of a training issue.

 PSA has pretty strict IPO style OB, environmental stress, a courage test similar to KNPV, and hard stick hit and pressure from the decoys. Not saying anyone is better than the other. I respect them all and each sport has strenghts and weaknesses.

Lakenois on pic looks tricolor. Collie tricolor..?

We somehow jumped to working dogs but there was (at least what in dark corners is whispered) also some adding of Collie to Tervueren for longer coat. Well that comes up with show vs. work thing.. yes we added this but you guys added that..

Bye, Raven

It is too bad that picture could not be used. I would never make fun of someone's dog because I'm sure it is loved very much. I think it would have really added to this if show people explained how it did or did not meet the standard, and someone new it's working ability(or lack thereof)

Going back to breed/variety. The BS is one breed with four varieties, but in most countries it seems they cannot be interbred or cannot breed without permission from the registry. So it seems as though they are treated as separate breeds, not really like red/blue Dobies or long/short GSD.

Christian

[workingmalinois]

There has never been another breed that earned a BR1? How about any other titles? I would think with all the great Belgian line GSD's that someone would have done it. GSD stuff is pretty complicated and SCH/IPO is a must for SV sanctioned breedings so maybe that plays a role.

There has been 1 Mal/DS cross that competed in BR3 but I can't think of any other breed getting to cat1 the last 20 yrs.  There has been 1 Terv about 30 yrs ago (not very long coat) but I don't consider this another breed.
But to me "just competing" isn't enough.  When you talk about GSD doing FR, this could be true (I don't know), but were they top dogs in high level competition?

Actually, everything I have learned about BR is from you, your videos, and Brigita. I don't think I am underestimating it and fully respect it. I just don't think it is head and shoulders above any other sport, just different. What exactly is the mental pressure that is more than other sports?(

I didn't say BR is head & shoulders above other sports.  Every sport is very demanding when you want to play at the top.

Pressure doesn't seem to come from the decoys with the light stick taps.

A good decoy can put a dog under immense pressure without any equipment at all and without any shouting or anything like that....

Is the basket guard somehow more stress than FR? If so, how?

IMO it certainly is. Unlike FR the dog can get all kinds of different objects to guard.  Difficult ones, sometimes impossible to lie or stand on (what about just a closed umbrella stuck into the soil or a large deep plate, filled with water....).  The decoy work also is different every time and the decoy is allowed to use objects to keep away the dog.
In FR there is no muzzle guard either, where the dog has to guard the same difficult object with maybe 3 or 4 civilians + the decoy coming from all sides to take it away...

Besides environmental stuff, is the OB more difficult or judged more strictly than IPO?

No, that's why we call obedience and jumping "the small work" 

How is it more stressful than say a police dog going under a house to fight a 250lb man who is on PCP?

The police dog is with his master and doesn't have the stress of the constant control.  He is allowed to do what he likes most.  Only thing he needs is courage.  This is the type of work KNPV breeds for with very good results.
Our dogs also need that courage, but on top of that they have to be able to take a lot of pressure and stress.

Being under constant control is stressful but to me more of a training issue.

Totally wrong.  No dog can be taught to take stress.
There are many dogs doing very good at the start and even do the whole program, but when you have to go very deep to get the finishing touch (needed to win) they collapse.
Stress resistance is the most important characteristic we look for in a dog.
He has to keep going on and on, even if you have to punish hard pretty often.

PSA has pretty strict IPO style OB, environmental stress, a courage test similar to KNPV, and hard stick hit and pressure from the decoys.

I don't know it well enough to judge, but what I've seen couldn't be compared to BR

[gunny]

Being under constant control is stressful but to me more of a training issue.
Totally wrong.  No dog can be taught to take stress.
There are many dogs doing very good at the start and even do the whole program, but when you have to go very deep to get the finishing touch (needed to win) they collapse.
Stress resistance is the most important characteristic we look for in a dog.
He has to keep going on and on, even if you have to punish hard pretty often.

This I disagree with. We always try to place a personalty to either nature or nurture. The vast experiecnces, emotions, phases, and lessons, how they learn them is so great. I defintly think that we can set a dog up to be confindent. I was kind of a nerd, and timid through school. after I graduated I began to gain confidence. Eventually I won some prestigous titles in kickboxing. today, I work as a rescue worker out at sea on helo crew. This condindence was defintly not in my nature was built. I have been put under emmence amounts of stress and did not collapse. I do not think dogs are to different. We greatly have an affect on how they view themselves and the world around them.

[ultramal]

When you talk about GSD doing FR, this could be true (I don't know), but were they top dogs in high level competition?

Actually it's very similar in FR Martine....30+ yrs ago the majority of participants in FR in France were GSD's (almost entirely dominated by GSD's)....To see a Malinois competing was rare.....Now the reverse is true...why?  Ability or lack of...   If one wishes to do well in Ringsport.....The Malinois is a 'working athlete' and that is the breed/variety of choice.  So when I think about crossing the GSD for example into the genepool (along with their countless genetic issues).......How on earth that would benefit or contribute to the Malinois, is beyond me.  I can see how it would help the GSD...but help the Malinois??  I think not.

Another mentioned adding the Pit....and 'not quitting' as being a desirable trait........I will differ on this as knowing when to 'quit' and being able to turn 'off and on' is critical in a working dog.  As well if one thinks about the Pit.......A properly bred Pit will NEVER bite a human.......It is atypical for the 'breed'.  They were never created for protection and historically; any Pit pup which showed any kind of aggression towards humans was immediately culled.  Unfortunately the downfall of the Pit (tops the ban lists world wide) if crossed into the Malinois genepool; will also take the Malinois down along with it.  This we don't need.  In my province for example (and the country is looking at the possibility of making this a National Ban...We have a complete Pit ban and this includes Staffs and ANY dog which is a cross of these; as well as any dog which even resembles a Pit.  One starts crossing the Mal and the Pit....It's only a matter of time before Mals are topping the 'most dangerous' lists....But that's another topic!

I think one can find all that they need through selective breeding practices within the working Malinois genepool.

[gunny]

I think one can find all that they need through selective breeding practices within the working Malinois genepool.- ultramal

I agree, There are malinois out there that do not need any help. But this luxury will not continue if different genentics are not introduced. Right now the malinois gene pool is deep...but for how long eventually there will be less and less branches on the tree.

[Pete Mitchell]

I tend to take an advisarial role in these threads because it seems sometimes that is the only way to get people talking. Without people participating we can't learn from each other or teach the people who are new and trying to learn. There is definatley an "art" to skillfully using these boards. This is another thing I have learned here.

This I disagree with. We always try to place a personalty to either nature or nurture. The vast experiecnces, emotions, phases, and lessons, how they learn them is so great. I defintly think that we can set a dog up to be confindent. I was kind of a nerd, and timid through school. after I graduated I began to gain confidence. Eventually I won some prestigous titles in kickboxing. today, I work as a rescue worker out at sea on helo crew. This condindence was defintly not in my nature was built. I have been put under emmence amounts of stress and did not collapse. I do not think dogs are to different. We greatly have an affect on how they view themselves and the world around them.

I am with you here. While in the police academy, I gained alot of confidence by my instuctors skillfully stressing me, teaching me to deal with that stress, and come out a "winner". Almost exactly what dog training is.

When I started training, all I heard from sport dog trainers is how PSD's are out of control, dangerous, and that cops know nothing about training dogs. Unfortunatly, there are many examples out there that would confirm these ideas. I fell into that line of thinking for a while. The more I became involved in Law Enforcement training? I began to understand , just like the various sports, it is different. I encourage people reading this to check out the thread in the Polls section of this forum titled "our dogs protecting us"

One thing for sure; there is no level of stress higher than a threat to someone's personal saftey. To compare the stress of ANY sport to that is completly ridiculous. Stay safe out there brother.

Pressure doesn't seem to come from the decoys with the light stick taps.

A good decoy can put a dog under immense pressure without any equipment at all and without any shouting or anything like that....

With all due respect Martine, I may not be at your level as a trainer but I have been a training decoy for almost 10 years now. Moving your arm in prey motion, looking a dog in the eye, and tapping him on the back with a stick amounts to immense pressure? I have only seen your videos and others on some breeder's websights but this seems to be the work while the dog is on the bite. BR is a stressful sport for sure but I don't see huge amounts of stress from the decoy. I believe this is one of the reasons the really hard dogs are successful. I think a FR decoy letting loose with the stick or a few of the PSA scenarios could cause a big problem with the out for these dogs. Just an opinion of course.

Another mentioned adding the Pit....and 'not quitting' as being a desirable trait........I will differ on this as knowing when to 'quit' and being able to turn 'off and on' is critical in a working dog. As well if one thinks about the Pit.......A properly bred Pit will NEVER bite a human.......It is atypical for the 'breed'. They were never created for protection and historically; any Pit pup which showed any kind of aggression towards humans was immediately culled. Unfortunately the downfall of the Pit (tops the ban lists world wide) if crossed into the Malinois genepool; will also take the Malinois down along with it. This we don't need. In my province for example (and the country is looking at the possibility of making this a National Ban...We have a complete Pit ban and this includes Staffs and ANY dog which is a cross of these; as well as any dog which even resembles a Pit. One starts crossing the Mal and the Pit....It's only a matter of time before Mals are topping the 'most dangerous' lists....But that's another topic!

Brigita-- You are correct in saying that Pit Bulls are not bred for human aggression. Pit fighters do cull for outright human aggression. However, aggression to humans is atypical in ANY breed. Why do you think the human/canine connection is so great? For some wierd reason nature thought we would make a good match.
Have you ever trained a pit bull in bitework or seen a good one do the work? I will try to make it to my friend's house on Sunday and take a video of me working his young dog I think he is only 9-10 months old. I think you would like him. No promises but I will try.
Do me a favor B--Please re-read your last post and be careful. Some readers may take your comments as an endorsement for breed banning, which I know you do not!!

Des Champs about said it all in his one post. He made 4 points on what would contribute to the downfall of any breed or breeding program. Purebred, Cross, or whatever. I think he put them in the correct order of importance.

1. Breeders Ethics--What are the breeders motivations? Improvement of the breed (Every breeder says that) Money, Recognition/Fame and in what order? Are they honest about what they are doing and using in their program?

2. Knowlege on Genetics--? Do they understand genetic coeifciants(SP?) and genetic probablity? Do they record each breeding and it's results? Do they understand and attempt to produce genotype that results in consistant phenotype?

I would like to applaude Gunny and Hoppsan for actually trying to talk about the science of genetics in this thread.

3. Breeder selection--Are they breeding or allowing their dog to be bred too much, to too many dogs, or only the one's that will likely produce towards thier breeding goal.

4. Genetic diversity--Are they breeding different dogs or having mulitiple litters of the same dogs in their yard? I think you have to inbreed or tightly line breed to start but then you have to bring in new stuff.

 These are the things that will help or hurt any breed or program. Not a few people mixing things into a breed.

Des Champs is a smart man. I have been watching what he has been doing for a while now. He has one female, in particular, I am keeping an eye on. Can't wait to see who he breeds to. I hope I have the space when he does.

One of the reasons I participate on this board is the level of talent and experience that is here. You can only get better by learning from the best. I am so thankful when I started out, I fell in with some of the best. I was young and very cocky. When I was full of shit they called me on it every time. Janis Howard and Doug White. Janis and her dog won the 98 Canadian FR Nationals and the 99 North American's and then retired her dog. I was lucky enough to be learning from them during this time. Brigita, you were competing with them right?? You won in 2000 didn't you?

There is a saying in the US "You can't bullshit a bullshitter" and I am as full of shit as anyone!

Absolutely Christian ! You know that we've spoken often enough for me not to take things personally! As a matter of fact...I'm truly enjoying the exchange! ......

[b]Not nearly as the number of so called Mals (crosses) which hold KNPV titles. BTW...when I said 'sport'........I wasn't speaking of KNPV....Most Dutch would roll over if you compared or labeled their police certification program as a 'sport'; or put it in the same category as the established sports like BR, IPO, FR, MR etc.... They would tell you it's like comparing apples to oranges. It's not a competition. But a certification program....Nothing more, nothing less.

I enjoyed the exchange Christian (as always) Thanks!

Isn't the Israeldogs video clip of the 2005 KNPV National Championships?
Sorry B sometimes you just make yourself and easy target. I think you are a kick in the pants. If we ever meet I promise I will buy you a beer and we can sit down and laugh about this I will try to get that video up for you.

Martine it's been fun.

Everyone else it has been nice talking to you again.

I have to, as they say, "Bow out gracefully" I have worked 8 years for this job. I have to get my nose in a book and my ass in the gym.

Thanks again everyone!!!!!!!!

Christian

[Beausmom]

Raven

This reply is for you? ? The? little lakenois who's picture had to be removed, was 100% laekenois with NO COLLIE or any other breed mixed in.....In fact she has had DNA done ;-) there is a black & tan gene that is recessive and it is in the Belgian breed and pops up from time to time.? In fact, a year ago a Groen breeding had 2 such colorings show up.......





Barbara

[ultramal]

>>I think a FR decoy letting loose with the stick or a few of the PSA scenarios could cause a big problem with the out for these dogs. Just an opinion of course.

Christian, from what I saw in France and on a couple of occasions in NA (by French decoys)....It wasn't so much a problem with the out.........as it was a problem with biting or engagement in the first place  ....IOW....It didn't happen.

>>You are correct in saying that Pit Bulls are not bred for human aggression. Pit fighters do cull for outright human aggression. However, aggression to humans is atypical in ANY breed.

No, the initial statement I said was that they were NOT created for PROTECTION.  The Belgian was used in the police and military within a couple years of being recognized as an official breed...due to their 'natural' tendencies to not only herd........but also protect the farm, owner/family....It was already there....To discuss the pit on the same level or category is 'apples and oranges' once again IMO....

>>For some wierd reason nature thought we would make a good match.

It would be nice to think that......but we are not much different from dogs or wild canids in this respect.......we are opportunists and tend to use what we can to benefit us and our survival....Back then it was a symbiotic relationship.....Nothing glamorous....We benefited from their protection and they benefited in being fed and their basic needs taken care of...I wouldn't contribute this to 'nature'...Humans back then being higher up on the 'food chain' simply saw a canid as a tool and an advantage to our survival....Nothing more, nothing less.  WE made this decision....not nature.

>>Des Champs about said it all in his one post.

Yup, I agree and said that.  I know exactly where he was coming from in his post.

>>3. Breeder selection--Are they breeding or allowing their dog to be bred too much, to too many dogs, or only the one's that will likely produce towards thier breeding goal.

What about the other aspect....there are breeders who have closed their 'stud book' to outside females and only breed to their own.........or by private treaty.....Are they in it for $$$$ or the breed?  The other side of the coin which wasn't presented....

>>Brigita, you were competing with them right?  You won in 2000 didn't you?

yes we did Christian!   Janice and Howard were some of the nicest people that I met when I started in Ringsport.  Excellent memories.

BTW...Congrats on your job/posting!  All the best to you and stay safe!

B

[ultramal]

>>I think you are a kick in the pants. If we ever meet I promise I will buy you a beer and we can sit down and laugh about this Grin I will try to get that video up for you.

Thanks Christian! lol 

I've always loved discussing and exchanging info with you!  BUT

*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*

I PREFER WINE!

B