I believe the topic of discussion is if breeding other things into a Mal and fake pedigrees hurt or help the breed. Martine and Brigita stated opinion that breeding something into the Mal is unneccisary and if someone did they had a problem with their breeding program. My response was to point out the Dutch is known to breed other breeds with the Mal and their are ALOT of people who believe the Dutch dogs are the best. Dutch dogs have been very successful in both sport competition and the real deal of police work so I don't see a problem with there breedig practices.
In 90% of the Dutch "X-mals" there is no other breed involved at all. Only malinois but "not FCI registered" and this is enough to make them X-malinois. I can't think of any very good dog that wasn't purebred malinois (but maybe "called X-malinois" because of the lack of registration....) To me almost all Dutch "X-mals" are "MALS"
As I wrote before.. problem is not the guy who has malpit (pighunters usually mix all possible together) but that this malpit used for hunting was breed to SCHIII malinois female. I doubt this is improvement of malinois. How he created that malpit, what malinois was mixed than I have no idea.
OK I misunderstood. I thought that the breeding was a Pitt to a Mal. If the PittxMal cross is a pig dog, he has to be tough as shit, anything else in a pig dog gets that dog killed. So to me he tried to put some speed and smarts into his pig dogs and probably some toughness and gameness into his malinios. Maybe he does have plan, who knows? Hopefully it works for him. He's honest about it.
What I don't understand is if there are a handfull of people doing this, and thousands of breeders breeding Mals, why do you see it as such a threat to the breed?? The way I see it, if people tell you what they are doing then how would that hurt anything. I can't see alot of purebred Mal breeders running to this guy to breed.
In 90% of the Dutch "X-mals" there is no other breed involved at all. Only malinois but "not FCI registered" and this is enough to make them X-malinois.
I'm still wondering if inter-breeding of Belgian Shepherds is still allowed. Can anyone confirm or deny this for me?
Depends on the individual country. In most of the countries, intervariety breeding isn't allowed (ie breeding a Terv to a Malinois) without special permission from the registry. However, in most of them, they register the pups as the correct variety. IE a long haired pup in a litter from 2 Malinois is registered as a Tervuren, not a Malinois. And that dog can then be bred to other Tervuren. So you do get a "mix" of the bloodlines that way.
So these Xmals... I havent met any and I'm curious, are they then better than normal mals? Of course there's lots of different mals but if you compare with what you consider to be good mals. What traits are better in x-mals? What has been improved?
Most of the X-mals I have seen are, by appearance, Malinios. Most of the police dogs in the US are X-Mals from Holland. They are often very hard dogs that carry alot of aggression. Some can be very sharp to the handler. These dogs have been bred for KNPV and Police work where these can be desirable traits. This is in general and not the rule of course
Isnt't there any purebred mals that are very hard dogs that carry a lot of aggression? I figure there should be quite a lot. Don't know DS too well but as for mixing in GSD I see all their health problems in front of my eyes (even think it should be easier to find a good working dog mal than a GSD...), and maybe it then would be safer to travel a longer distance and to make some effort in searching for mals that have the same traits, than go for the neighbours GSD or mixed breed...
The Malpit is no more a breed than an X-Mal. I doubt that this will screw up the Mal that quickly. Christian has provided several traits in favor of a Pitbull so even if the Pitbull is not a herding dog (and to be honest most Mals I know are no longer herding dogs but belong in Group 2 - Guard and defence dogs) it can bring these qualities.
About the intervariety breeding, in countries like France and UK they still do it and in the UK I believe you don't even need permission.
Saskia
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>>What I don't understand is if there are a handfull of people doing this, and thousands of breeders breeding Mals, why do you see it as such a threat to the breed?
Actually there aren't 'thousands of Mal breeders'.......In fact our genepool is small.......That makes it a threat to the breed. And you're right........breeders who are in it for the breed are not going to run to 'that guy'.
B
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>>>I doubt that this will screw up the Mal that quickly.
So screwing up a breed SLOWER is better than quicker???
>>>(and to be honest most Mals I know are no longer herding dogs but belong in Group 2 - Guard and defence dogs) it can bring these qualities.
100 yrs ago the Malinois was used for police, military and still considered a 'herding breed.' So why would it be different now?? Back then their 'protection qualities' were appreciated even though they were primarily a herding breed....
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"Desire is the key to motivation, but it's the determination and commitment to an unrelenting pursuit of your goal - a commitment to excellence - that will enable you to attain the success you seek."
In 90% of the Dutch "X-mals" there is no other breed involved at all. Only malinois but "not FCI registered" and this is enough to make them X-malinois.
I highly doubt that
Well, I don't doubt that, because I know for sure... (not all of them, but that's what I already said. I wasn't talking about 100%)
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I can't think of any very good dog that wasn't purebred malinois (but maybe "called X-malinois" because of the lack of registration....)
Really? No very good dogs other than Mals? Wow.
Other good dogs: SURE For what WE need: NO For other sports there are other parameters, but for what we like to see in a dog, I never saw a single one that wasn't a Mal (and believe me I've seen LOTS of them).
So these Xmals... I havent met any and I'm curious, are they then better than normal mals? Of course there's lots of different mals but if you compare with what you consider to be good mals. What traits are better in x-mals? What has been improved?
Most of the X-mals I have seen are, by appearance, Malinios. Most of the police dogs in the US are X-Mals from Holland. They are often very hard dogs that carry alot of aggression. Some can be very sharp to the handler. These dogs have been bred for KNPV and Police work where these can be desirable traits. This is in general and not the rule of course
Isnt't there any purebred mals that are very hard dogs that carry a lot of aggression? I figure there should be quite a lot. Don't know DS too well but as for mixing in GSD I see all their health problems in front of my eyes (even think it should be easier to find a good working dog mal than a GSD...), and maybe it then would be safer to travel a longer distance and to make some effort in searching for mals that have the same traits, than go for the neighbours GSD or mixed breed...
***You are aboslutely correct IMO! There are plenty of Malinois that are game, aggressive, have 'extreme' drives.........But then one would have to drive distances and probably pay a decent amount of $$$ for stud services for a specific male/female. Many like the convenience of breeding mixes.......it's cheaper and many times more convenient....and no 'red tape' with paperwork...Certainly doesn't make for a 'better dog' IMO.
***I have been to Europe several times & trained with them........and the interesting thing is that most will tell you that the Malinois as a breed can 'add to other breeds w/respect to improvement)' but they haven't found a breed which can 'add something' to the Malinois.
***When comparing a 'good' Malinois.....there is NOTHING that an 'x-mal' can demonstrate that would empower them over a 'pure' malinois....In fact when I was in Holland.......the pups which 'worked out' in a given litter were the Mal type pups vs the DS type pups....Most Dutch will tell you that it is very difficult to find a DS that works as well as a good Malinois. Most will also tell you that the Malinois is what brings the workability to the DS (ie., KNPV)...They will also tell you that the working DS would be 'nowhere without the Malinois blood'...........But mixing the two; does nothing for the Malinois...........Only for the DS.
***Let's face it........during/after the war.......economics forced many to breed mixes as they couldn't afford 'purebreds'. The Mal X or DS X was a result of this. Much cheaper. And still are today. A pup in Holland can be bought for 250! They don't breed for the breed or for health or whatever....They breed for KNPV/the program. They don't have an official registry; as this isn't a priority for them. And they are also not known to be breeding for 'health' and most knpv breeders are not on par with other malinois breeders w/respect to health clearances.
***As far as KNPV breeders go.......It's not about the breed at all........They want a working 'machine' and that's it. If that means incorporating a Great Dane, or a Mastiff, or a JR or a Pitt......If it gets the job done..........that's what it's all about....
***When discussing Dutch dogs.......it's really isn't about breeds at all. And we have to keep the original question in this thread in mind...
***Also, one will find that Dutch dogs (crosses) rarely do well in any sport as compared to the Malinois.
***JMHO. B
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"Desire is the key to motivation, but it's the determination and commitment to an unrelenting pursuit of your goal - a commitment to excellence - that will enable you to attain the success you seek."
"Desire is the key to motivation, but it's the determination and commitment to an unrelenting pursuit of your goal - a commitment to excellence - that will enable you to attain the success you seek."
Posts are flying in I see barely manage to read them.?
To get back to begining and to try to explain my posts.
1. The problem of this is NOT that dog which was breed to female is a mix with pitbull problem is that I can?t understand what pitbull or a malpit could actually add to malinois and by doing so make it better.
2. It could be any other breed, for instance what if I decided to add bloodhound to malinois to improve smell. This dogs are not know for their agression, dog atacks and god knows what else. I would still have the same problem with it. So even if I would somehow suceed in adding better smelling traits to malinois what would I loose? Speed, agility, bite?
3. Many times I hear how people whish that a malinois would be able to run 35 miles an hour, fly and bite like aligator. But who?s vision is that? You belive that malinois ever had this traits? Even dogs have to have a limit somewhere.
4. Many times fingers point at KNPV when xmals are mentioned but most people like in this case workingmalinois who know KNPV pretty good tell us otherwise. Why is this so hard to belive? The easiest way is just to accept what you been hearing arround and be blind to trouth. It is like with video http://www.israeldogs.com/videoclips/knpv2005.wmv where KNPV looks very impressive.. Not just impressive it almoust brings tears to working people.. I had couple emotional moments after watching it after all the woows..? Now use this video and xmal theory?s and you will come up with how mixed mals are great. If you belive that most dogs in KNPV are xmals than hell xmal is perfection.
5. I did not put time frame on screwing up of malinois but if this is continued probably in 20-30 years mals will hardly be what they used to be.
So yes in bottom line it comes down to breeders but not just breeders also to those guys who have females and know pretty much 0 about breeding and they belive they will get that aligator bite somehow probably by pure luck. Than you have some great training centers who sell dogs to lawenforcement, military... If you can?t find a single good male for mating in 10.000s mals all over the world and need to add something else than probably there is nothing wrong with malinois but with you.
Des Champs I agree!?
Bye, Raven
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In evolution (like breeding) there is always constraints to different traits so that they can't evolve. The trait probably just doesnt' have the wished genes in the population. Probably there is a "roof" of how fast dogs can run with their construction, or how agressive an animal can be without being a nervwrack at the same time. I still don't know what traits should be increased in mals that we actually can get from some other breed?
Speed -greyhound? Suppose those dogs are the only ones actually faster than mals . But do they have the fysics of maintaining speed and workability for hours? Not to mention that their mentality would ruin mals.
Nervs - GSD would be my closest quess, since they are close relatives... health problems a big risk
toughness- maybe pitbulls and mastiffs, boxers, dont know any pitbulls or anything about them, but mastiffs, come on... braindead (sorry mastifflovers, my personal opinion) extremely non-agile, boxers, hard to motivate, health-problems and bad bite.
and so on... I don't think we can improve mals with other breeds without loosing some wonderful traits that we actually have in mals. I know a lot of breeders travel around Europe to find good mals for breeding. It's a matter of priorities and not letting money talk.
>>>I doubt that this will screw up the Mal that quickly.
So screwing up a breed SLOWER is better than quicker???
This is not how I intended the sentence, probably it came across the wrong way as it is nearly a literal translation from Dutch. What I meant is that breeding these cross breed dogs are not a threat to the Mal so the changes of these dogs screwing up the Mal will be small.
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In 90% of the Dutch "X-mals" there is no other breed involved at all. Only malinois but "not FCI registered" and this is enough to make them X-malinois.
If a dog is a purebred Mal even without registration papers, then please call it a Mal and not an X-Mal because for me X-Mals are cross-bred dogs.
When mixing breeds for a certain purpose trying to improve something one should look at it over a longer period as it will take a while before the desired quality is fixed in the breed.
Saskia
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He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
I think this is a great thread! i am putting effort into it because I have some time on my hands. It is an interesting topic and it is nice to see people participating and offering opinions. I am in no way trying to make this personal or taking it very seriously. I say this in complete fun and humor:
In 90% of the Dutch "X-mals" there is no other breed involved at all. Only malinois but "not FCI registered" and this is enough to make them X-malinois.
I highly doubt that
Well, I don't doubt that, because I know for sure... (not all of them, but that's what I already said. I wasn't talking about 100%)
That just seems like an awfully high figure. How is it that you know for sure? Are you a breed warden for KNPV? I only question this because I have worked and seen a decent number of police dogs imported from Holland that seem to have other things bred into them. Maybe they only sell these dogs to the US?
I can't think of any very good dog that wasn't purebred malinois (but maybe "called X-malinois" because of the lack of registration....)
Really? No very good dogs other than Mals? Wow.
Other good dogs: SURE For what WE need: NO For other sports there are other parameters, but for what we like to see in a dog, I never saw a single one that wasn't a Mal (and believe me I've seen LOTS of them).
Maybe you can name me one?
This is completely off topic but you called me out so I will play:
My knowlege of Belgian Ring is limited so I don't know if any other breeds are successful. I would imagine being in Belgium the vast majority of dogs are Mals. Mals are my dog of choice and just about everybody knows if you want to win you better get a Mal. But a few dogs I think would have had some success:
1. Belschik vom Eicken Brucke,GSD-SCH3 2XBSP, WUSV
I could not copy a link for the video but go to- http://www.daelenberghutte.be/- then go to "our dogs". At the bottom of the females there is a link to a Belschik video. Everyone should check it out, it's really worth seeing. Assuming he was environmentlly strong, I have seen a son and a daughter that were, I think he could have given it a run.
2. White Lightning's Bruno, American Bulldog- BST2, NPL2, PSA2 and many other titles I can't recall.
This dog was awesome. I was one of his training decoys for 5 years. He could have done anything. Not saying he would have beat Mals in BR but did several times in PSA and NAPD. He was a dog I would have wanted for the real life situation.
3. Bruno-? I believe he was PH1, not sure,Sacramento County Sheriff Department, many, many live street bites.This is the dog I was talking about that no doubt had Pitt in it. I was a training decoy for him for 1 year. He jumped up on an 8' tin roof shack and bit me on an area search, I saw him do helicopter deployment, go through fire, apprehension in a river while swimming, I could go on and on.
I believe these dogs could have made a very good showing in BR, or any dog sport for that matter. You may not know of these dog but there is a big wide world outside of BR.
Brigita--Your last two posts show your mastery of BS and taking other people's words and making them your own and God bless you for it. It is what I like about you. Remember now; just good natured teasing.
There is so much here I don't know how to address it all. So I will just touch on your last two comments.
***As far as KNPV breeders go.......It's not about the breed at all........They want a working 'machine' and that's it. If that means incorporating a Great Dane, or a Mastiff, or a JR or a Pitt......If it gets the job done..........that's what it's all about....
***Also, one will find that Dutch dogs (crosses) rarely do well in any sport as compared to the Malinois.
***JMHO. B[/b]
So you agree that crosses are frequently done by the Dutch?
And your last comment; come on now that's just too much. There are alot of KNPV DS with Met Lof. We all know that most of these are DS x Mal x who knows what. I believe Terry Davis imported quite a few dogs from Holland and was quite successful in ring sport with them. I'm sure not all were "purebred" but I can't be sure. How about Police Dog competitions? Robert Wadman won four NAPD championships in a row. ( The highlight of my career was losing to him in a PSA trial by 3 points with a 5 point handler error) His dogs were PDT lines, so purebred? Not sure of what his current competiton dogs are. OJ Knighten has had at least two KNPV DS crosses that titled in PSA.
I took a Biology class in college that emphasised on gentics. In that class I learned that the idea of a purebred animal is one with many generations of the same animal being bred. The scientific definition of a purebreed is when a species can breed true to it's expected traits.? So hear is an interesting thought to ponder:
If we have black Mals and Tervs that come from Mal breedings, and the interbreeding of Belgian Shepherds still happens. If so the Malinios is not a "purebreed" so how could the cross of something else be the downfall of the Malinios?
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Now use this video and xmal theory?s and you will come up with how mixed mals are great. If you belive that most dogs in KNPV are xmals than hell xmal is perfection.
. But do they have the fysics of maintaining speed and workability for hours? Not to mention that their mentality would ruin mals.
