The downfall off the gsd isn't the result off a trick off the genepool but off irresponsible breeding, testing and popularity. As long as the dogs you work with are tested to the extreme extend that BR is you won't get genetic problems. Weak dogs are driven out the breedingproces. The genepole isn't that narow. There are pockets off Mals all over the world they can be used for "new blood" purposses.And there are lots off MAls around; not all that good but if you need quantity to avert the dangers off genetic "failure" that may not be a problem either.
And for crossbreeding and narow genepool. Here is a little Thing i learned from breeding my horses. I have had a breedingstock off "Cheval de M?rens" a small black french mountain horse. In the begining off the 1970 there were less than 100 worldwide. Now they have a healthy population with over 400 foals every year. Another thing with this breed is the following. Napolion was going to go to war with Germany and was looking for good warhorses. He found the M?rens to be good but except for his sieze. So he ordered that these horses should be bred to Anglo-arabe to increase sieze. This failed misserably. The down fall is that now a few hundred years later you can breed 2 small black horses and get as a result a big Lightbrown foal. So watch-out what you're doing
The downfall off the gsd isn't the result off a trick off the genepool but off irresponsible breeding, testing and popularity. As long as the dogs you work with are tested to the extreme extend that BR is you won't get genetic problems. Weak dogs are driven out the breedingproces. The genepole isn't that narow. There are pockets off Mals all over the world they can be used for "new blood" purposses.And there are lots off MAls around; not all that good but if you need quantity to avert the dangers off genetic "failure" that may not be a problem either.
I do not get your statement. Breeding is the practise of mixing genes. Problems in dogs are either genetic or enviormental. Why is irresponsible breeding bad....because it messes with the genes! The problems the GSD is facing is the direct result of breeding GSDs to GSDs. The gene pool got to narrow. Hip dysplasia did not magically manufactuer itself. it's a mutation from to many similar genes. And testing is good, but it's not 100% Genes can be recessive.
I do not know about you. But I hear about a handful malinois elgos, g'bibber, turkados (sp?) names over and over again. So even though there are pockets of dogs. people are selfish and want to breed to the best.
I just do not understand the resitance to this. The resitance to change. If there is one thing true in sports.....everyone else is always getting better!
I understand what Gunny is pointing out because it was the same reaction I had to Heldengebroed's post. The more a dog is used the higher the chance that something will go wrong. On the other hand I am not in favor of mixing breeds unless you are really planning to make a new breed and this takes years to develop. It is how modern breeds have been created. In Belgium there is a man who recreated the Belgian Mastiff basically from scratch by using the breeds from which the original type was built. Maybe such a different breed will be better than the Mal?
Will there be a downfall of the Malinois? Eventually yes although it may still take a long time and probably not because of problems with the breed but more a change of public mentality. What will happen to the breed when gouvernments decide that BR, FR, NVBK, KNPV can only be trained by people who need it for their job and not for the average man in the street. I guess that this will be the downfall of the breed rather than a new breed.
Saskia
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About mixing other breeds into malinois and the geenepool... To improve mentality, increasing genepool doens't help I suppose. If you increase the genepool, you also increase the width of the mentality in dogs. Usually you want to increase genepool to avoid some health problems, improve feritility etc. I suppose the genepool for malinois all over the world is enough to keep health problems down, as long as you avoid too much linebreeding and too much use of one male. Isn't the breed pretty healthy compared to other working dog breeds? My 8 year old and 3 year old mals have so far no health problems at all.
To improve mentality... when it comes to taking in other breeds into the genepool, you might not get a mix from the most desired characters of the two breeds, you might get a mix of the worst characters from the breed. Plus, you might get new health problems into the breed that wasnt there before. It will be more difficult to foresee the character of individual puppies when mixing breeds. I love belgian shepherds. For me it's the belgian shepherd mentality I'm after when I buy a dog, I want a energetic, easy to learn, social, brave, hardworking dog with lots of drive. I don't want just a "workingdog", how good it might be, if it doesn't have that extra that is so typical for belgians. Like the people who loves the old style working GSD (there's still some at least in sweden). They hate the what they mean "hysterical" mali style and for them, the GSD style is the most desireble. Or lets say people who loves more calm and robust workingdogs, like Rottweilers. For them it doesn't matter that every excercise is done in a tenth of a second, just the work gets done. Not to mention people needing fast reactions and perfect obedience from their border collies. They might not need a tough dog that can stand against criminals, but a good and fast, easy to learn workingdog. The good thing with breeds and trying to keep the mentality quite the same within breed is that you have the possibility to choose and foresee how your puppy is going to be. And like someone says, every breeder has her/his own ideal dog of the breed, which creates some variation within the breed. Think this variation is good, keeps the geenepool wider, but the main charasteristics for the breed is still there.
'Why mix with another breed when all we are looking for is in our own breed: the malinois???"
If you are selective enough and only use the right breeding stock you sure won't need any other breed to get good results.
Just my opinion?
Couldn't have said it better Martine!? If one feels they must use another breed to mix into the Mal genepool........Then perhaps they better be looking at THEIR breeding program! ? Something is definitely not right.
B
Don't the Dutch have a "breed" MaliniosX?? How many Dutch shepherds don't have Mal in them and vice versa? Or GSD for that matter. Or who knows what? Don't thousands of these dogs get imported to the US and other countries as police service dogs or sport competition? The majority of Police service and Military dogs protecting the world are Dutch "mongrels". So are we saying that the Dutch don't know how to breed dogs or have something wrong with their breeding program?
I prefer French/Belgian lines over Dutch dogs but it is harder to know their real pedigrees. You have to find someone with alot of knowlege to know what is really in the lines. The most influential working stud dog in the last 20 years had a pedigree that wasn't correct, but almost everyone knew it. The Dutch are just a little more open about what they are doing.
To me malinois is at its peak at the moment and I belive adding something else will only fire back and create downfall. When you are trying to add something new or to improve a trait than you lose on others so my opinion is like heldengebroeds.
It is not only USA it is whole world. People belive they can improve traits, make their dogs better, they breed something in, fake pedigree and sell dogs. Those sold dogs are than breed and added to malinois lines.
I agree and disagree with this Raven. I believe the Malinios is going down as a working breed. Their increasing popularity will only make it worse. Yes, breeding something into a breed and/or fake pedigrees can bring a dog down if people are not open about it. How can someone select a dog to breed if they don't know the genes behind the dog?? I am all for breeding purebred dogs if you can do it and consitantly produce good dogs. I am all for mixing it up a bit if that is what needs to be done. It is naive though to think a pedigree is correct unless you bred it yourself.
The downfall of any breed always boils down to money. Breeds get popular and people then breed to make money, sell dogs to anyone, who breed again to make money. This has happend to almost every breed. GSD, Rotts, Dobies, Cocker Spaniels, etc. People make breeds great then people F-themup, then people who love the breed bring them back. Just the way it happens.
Do you'all really think someone attempting one breeding to an outstanding GSD into their malinios lines, especially if that line was tightly line bred, would be worse than breeding to a purebred dog of unknown ancestry or less quality?
I just do not understand the resitance to this. The resitance to change. If there is one thing true in sports.....everyone else is always getting better!
Understand completely. This applies to everyone and everything. The world is ever evolving.
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"I have come to see my dogs as a reflection of my willingness to try to improve, as well as an unsparing measure of my frequent failures in doing so."
health problems like hip dysplasia... it's not the problem that you breed a GSD to a GSD. We have tests for a lots of health problems. The reason why there is health problems is the breeders choises and priorities. For example in Sweden it is common to X-ray all dogs, not just breedingdogs. Then you can follow which lines are carriers of bad hips for example. Still many breeders in sweden (GSD for example) use dogs for breeding who might have A hips, but maybe 3 littermates have D or E. Obvoiusly it's a big chance also the breedingdog is a carrier of genes for bad hips, but sometimes titles and money talks more than brains. Other example is gunproofness in belgians. You have to make a mentaltest for a breedingdog to register puppies (and to compete in workingtrials, good statistics of most litters), but the results doesn't matter. Basically, there's some showpeople breeding on dogs that have the worst result on gunshooting (on a five grade scale). And then there's other healt issues that are not well regulated by breedingprograms. When breeders and dogowners are keeping quiet of problems and breeding dogs with own problems, or problems in the lines, we never get rid of those problems.
But there might be other reasons to use that GSD from a litter with bad hips providing to use the the bitch or stud carfully. It all depends what the breeder envisions for their dogs.
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He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
I see we all have our opinions and different education. I respect each and everyones opinion and education here . I see this thread going south, So I am going to little simmer....Gunny out--
I see we all have our opinions and different education. I respect each and everyones opinion and education here . I see this thread going south, So I am going to little simmer....Gunny out--
Hi Gunny!
This can be a very good discussion. I certainly wasn't meaning to appear arrogant in my post. I think it's more arrogant when people/breeders play 'God' and try to 'fix something' that's not broke.
We are all into a particular BREED because we found traits that which were desirable to us in the first place. To bring in other breeds.......would result in that initial breed and the traits we were attracted to in the first place; to be 'no more'. The breed is gone. Every time it seems when someone tries to 'customize' a breed and produces a 'hybrid'...results in something that is 'neither or'....
Breeders (show or work) breed for different goals........And their own interpretation of what the 'ideal' is...Some breed for a particular program and will customize any breed to achieve that goal........Others breed for the Breed to maintain that original/traditional workability/versatility which attracted them to the breed in the first place....Their goal or motivation is to support and promote the breed which they are so passionate about.....
To mix other breeds into the Malinois.......Well then it's no longer a Malinois. The breed is then gone. So yes.......this will contribute the downfall of the breed....So to say that one has 'improved on the Malinois' is really not true........What they've done is contributed to the Breed's demise/non-existence......As it's no longer a Malinois. The traits which made it unique in the first place are no longer the same traits...It is a HERDING breed. It is no longer the same breed (or even a breed).
Hope I've clarified my own stand on things. And I apologize for giving you a wrong impression of what I was trying to say...
But here is a question for you.........What is it that you think needs changing or modifying? What would you like to see different in the traditional working Malinois?
Brigita
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I didn?t start this thread to start some shit so we have a little happening here. To tell you all the trouth I somehow accepted Xmals as what they are but haven?t changed my opinion.
The idea?s of this malpit breed with titled malinois shocked me at first not because they were creating another xmal but simply because I could not understand what a malpit that is used for hunting pigs could add to malinois.
Ultramal your last post totaly nailed it, it took my words away and I have nothing to add to it. So all I can say is?
Bye, Raven
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Do not condemn the judgment of another because it differs from your own. You may both be wrong. ~Dandemis
The idea?s of this malpit breed with titled malinois shocked me at first not because they were creating another xmal but simply because I could not understand what a malpit that is used for hunting pigs could add to malinois.
That was my initial guess. It shocked people because it is a pit but basically it is the same concept as the X-Malinois. Probably the people creating the Malpit had the same idea as the people breeding X-Malinois, maybe they were no longe rhappy with the traits of the Malinois so they started to look for something new.
Saskia
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He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
So these Xmals... I havent met any and I'm curious, are they then better than normal mals? Of course there's lots of different mals but if you compare with what you consider to be good mals. What traits are better in x-mals? What has been improved?
That was my initial guess.? It shocked people because it is a pit but basically it is the same concept as the X-Malinois.? Probably the people creating the Malpit had the same idea as the people breeding X-Malinois
Personally I'm not sure what adding any bulldog breed to the Malinois will do, as far as improving the Malinois. It may create a dog with traits the breeder is looking for, but IMO those would be traits that aren't "Malinois traits".
I can better understand the x-Mal that are GSD, DS, ie other herding breeds added to the Mal. But at the same time I think those same traits the GSD, DS, etc were added for could have been found in other Malinois and a Malinois used instead, if the breeder cared about "purity". And I suspect the mix of the herding breeds (GSD, DS, Mal) is done because A) the goal is to produce good working dogs, not to specifically produce Malinois B) since mix or pure doesn't really matter, why not use what is locally available Why travel 100's or 1000's of miles to use a Malinois that will produce X trait when you can use the DS an hour away, who will also produce X trait.
I agree this can be a good discussion. Not trying to start shit but offering my opinion and stating what is widely considered as fact. I will try to tone down my assertivness.
I believe the topic of discussion is if breeding other things into a Mal and fake pedigrees hurt or help the breed. Martine and Brigita stated opinion that breeding something into the Mal is unneccisary and if someone did they had a problem with their breeding program. My response was to point out the Dutch is known to breed other breeds with the Mal and their are ALOT of people who believe the Dutch dogs are the best. Dutch dogs have been very successful in both sport competition and the real deal of police work so I don't see a problem with there breedig practices.
People have brought up genetics and my opinion on that is if you breed an outstanding dog of another breed; the dogs pedigree and any gentic problems are known then that would be safer than an unknown pedigree with unknown genetic problems.
So these Xmals... I havent met any and I'm curious, are they then better than normal mals? Of course there's lots of different mals but if you compare with what you consider to be good mals. What traits are better in x-mals? What has been improved?
Most of the X-mals I have seen are, by appearance, Malinios. Most of the police dogs in the US are X-Mals from Holland. They are often very hard dogs that carry alot of aggression. Some can be very sharp to the handler. These dogs have been bred for KNPV and Police work where these can be desirable traits. This is in general and not the rule of course.
The idea?s of this malpit breed with titled malinois shocked me at first not because they were creating another xmal but simply because I could not understand what a malpit that is used for hunting pigs could add to malinois.
If this guy is a pig hunter I don't think he is trying to improve on the Mal but trying to bring something to the Pitt Bull. Speed and Prey drive I would think. I gave my example of the police dog from Holland that more than likely had Pitt Bull in him. This dog was one of my all-time favorites. I would have given anything to own him. He was tough as nails with many, many live street bites. He only showed handler aggression when something was unfair, was stable and safe for people to pet, and was completly and totally devoted to his handler.
I believe the Pitt Bull HAS THE POTENTIAL to bring fight drive, toughness, and gameness(the willingness to never quit) to any breed.
Again, it may seem as though I am an advocate of interbreeding. I am not. If someone can consistantly breed quality in their lines great. If I ever breed this is what ?will try to do. I am just not opposed to interbreeding either if it improves someone's lines or gets them to their personal breeding goals.
I have one big question maybe someone could answer. Do countries in Europe, Belgium in particular, allow for the inter-breeding of the different Belgian Shepherd dogs?
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"I have come to see my dogs as a reflection of my willingness to try to improve, as well as an unsparing measure of my frequent failures in doing so."
Quote from: Pete Mitchell on Today at 06:29:26 PM Quote The idea?s of this malpit breed with titled malinois shocked me at first not because they were creating another xmal but simply because I could not understand what a malpit that is used for hunting pigs could add to malinois.
If this guy is a pig hunter I don't think he is trying to improve on the Mal but trying to bring something to the Pitt Bull. Speed and Prey drive I would think.
As I wrote before.. problem is not the guy who has malpit (pighunters usually mix all possible together) but that this malpit used for hunting was breed to SCHIII malinois female. I doubt this is improvement of malinois. How he created that malpit, what malinois was mixed than I have no idea.
So technicaly we are where we were in one other thread where xmals were main thing..
My belief is: If you want to create ULTIMATE dog, who will be superior to malinois (which I doubt will happen) do it I have no problem with it but DON?T do it at expense of Malinois. Let?s leave malinois to be malinois. If breeders would all have "let?s mix and improve" malinois idea what would we have in 10 years? I belive thousands crying for what was in the past as now when a lot of people point to show dogs.
That is why I have no problem when people try to create a new breed because they mix different breeds together and put them under a new name. So if you create something new and in 20 years see that you screwed up you don?t have to worry you helped to screw up a breed.
Bye, Raven
« Last Edit: June 13, 2006, 10:05:26 PM by Raven »
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Do not condemn the judgment of another because it differs from your own. You may both be wrong. ~Dandemis
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