Since this is Belgian shepherd forum we will all agree that malinois is the ultimate working dog. Dog that does it all and than some. I often wonder are we at the top where improvement is not possible anymore or are we slowly loosing what malinois had.
I recently started chatting and reading on different forums and found out that in USA there is some crossbreeding done all the time. Most of us would immediately think GSD but it is APBT. I scratched my head a little when I heard about something called malpit. What the hell is a malpit I asked and got interesting answer. Malpit is a cross of malinois and pit-bull after that answer I got interesting story:
?I breed my malpit with SCHIII malinois female. Female was so aggressive that she had to wear muzzle during mating, she considers other dogs as fair game. Owner of female has already some GSD in her dogs and now decided to add pit-bull.?
Than I asked are those pups malinois for you? Answer was: ?If it looks and works like a malinois it is a malinois. Standards are always too closely followed.?
I am no expert in breeding but what can actually malinois gain from APBT? Of course I asked and got the answer STABILITY and STRENGTH.
Hm, what do you get if you breed highly aggressive female with dog that was breed to fight? Improvement of malinois?
Somehow I get a feeling we are on a roller coaster with all breeds. Someone has a goal, creates a breed, creates a standard than we breed for 100 years and finally decide everything went to hell, that dogs are not what they used to be and start from scratch.
So my question to you all is:
Is adding other breeds improvement of malinois or its downfall?
Bye, Raven
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Do not condemn the judgment of another because it differs from your own. You may both be wrong. ~Dandemis
A mal is the extreme balanse between strenght, size, speed, agility, endurance, menthal power and longlivity. If you change anything you can strengten one point but you lose, big time, on the other parts.
In the USA, All we hear about is how the Europeans, "fake pedigees". By adding in other breeds to bring something to lines that maybe lacking. I do not know if that is true. I will tell you. I love malinois. But I wish we were not so breedist. I wish all dogs of every creed and color were valued equally on the sporting field. For a few reasons. It would make things more interesting. We would come out with a dog that would be better than malinois'. We feepen the gene pools. I tell you what is true to much refining and you will eventually ruin something. The malinois is a great breed. We are always trying to bring great dogs out of litters. But eventually this selective breeding will end on a bad note (unless you sneaky euro's keep adding in dogs). The gene pool will be to shallow and we will be in the same mess as GSD people. The GSD got much mor epopular so the breeding were excelerated. I doubt the Malinois will ever be a house hold name. So it will just take longer.
Breeds are the result of selective breeding, this narrows the gene pool. creating distinct charcteristics. That when two dog of similar genetic backround are breed This reproduces offspring that are extremly similar to thier parents.
Back to the OP's question which was:
Is adding other breeds improvement of malinois or its downfall?
So adding another breed will thus introduce new genes unlike it's ancestors. Diluting the gene pool. giving mother nautre a thicker deck of cards to choose from. Random selection of genes now has a higher probability of not selecting similar genes. Science has shown us that offspring recieveing genes that are to similar creates problems. Hence, why inbreedings to close is a bad idea. Inbreeding to close is not the only culprit, breeding dogs with the too many of the same of ancestors has shown to cause problems.
So for fanciers of purebreds this is a bad thing. This will make malinois "different" than what they want.
But in the eyes of science and nature this will be a good thing. Supporting the idea of procreation, introducing different gentics will help insure survival of the species. Remember dog breed were not decided by nature. They were created by humans. An instnace where this went horribly wrong, the old english bulldog.
So, my answer is I wish that dog sports were not dependent upon breeds, I wish it focused more on the species of canis lupus as a whole. I wish we could look at dogs as individuals and not as breeds. where i could look at a dog and say that's a good male, and look at another dog and say i like that female. If one of those dogs be a pitbull and the other a malinois, just fine by me. and make that judgement on how they could compliment each other we do not compete in dog sports we compete in dog breed sports.
Do not get me wrong I think the malinois is an incredible breed. That's why I own 2. As for the op's story about the pitbull. That aggresiveness could have came from the malinois just as easily as it came from the pit. I have met just as many aggresive malinois as I have pits. Also who knows if that aggression might not be breed related at all. An enviormental stimulus post birth could have caused the dogs aggression.And I do not think we can argue the structural integrity of the pitbull. Another fantistic success in dog breeding. If I could get the power of the jaws and body of a pitbull and somehow tie that in with a good working malinois drive and trainability. I think you would have one hell of a protection dog.
I do not think that dog world, especially the sport world is ready to have out in the open, intentional crossing of breeds competeing, yet. I do not think that dog sport society has evolved to that point yet.
Just as we say, "they breed malinois with a pitbull!!!???" and look at that as absurd. Go to a dog a park and tell all the people you train your dog in protection sports. You might get the same look. But you know they do not anything about what your sport. thier reaction is based in the fear of ignorance.
Those people with malipit, may have not produced what they looking for...but who knows? It took Edison a few thousand tried before he got the lightbulb right.
I understand where you are coming from and how you look at this. To you like to a lot of work people breed does not mather importaint thing is how dog works, how trainable it is, drives,..
To me malinois is at its peak at the moment and I belive adding something else will only fire back and create downfall. When you are trying to add something new or to improve a trait than you lose on others so my opinion is like heldengebroeds.
It is not only USA it is whole world. People belive they can improve traits, make their dogs better, they breed something in, fake pedigree and sell dogs. Those sold dogs are than breed and added to malinois lines. Ok, if we can go over that and somehow accept it I than see another problem: What was breed into this lines, what good came out of it? We all know (and it was written couple times on forum too) that it is very hard even to preserve good things in extreme breedings (combining great dogs that have too much of everything). You will never know what was added to lines it could be some backyard breed pitbull or a champion GSD. So quality of what is coming in can be very questionable.
To make it about cars ( ) you take a ferrari, start medling with it, remove something add something and you can come out with something that still looks great, has perfect design but drives like a bicycle.
I belive all dogs should be allowed to compete in all sports no mather purebreed or not. This would take away a lot of problems but world is not perfect and trying to make something perfect makes it even less perfect.
Bye, Raven
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Do not condemn the judgment of another because it differs from your own. You may both be wrong. ~Dandemis
To me malinois is at its peak at the moment and I belive adding something else will only fire back and create downfall. When you are trying to add something new or to improve a trait than you lose on others so my opinion is like heldengebroeds.
Has been at his peak for over 40 years now. Only the insiders new way back in the 60's. Now more and more people see the mal for what it is. A true working "machine"
Just to play devils advocate. How do we know the malinois is at it's peak?...What if the malinois is only going to get better. The Malinois is an incredible dog... But that 's not to say we cannot improve it. Also, Peak is all dependent on what you think a good dog is. What if, lets say ,we do add pit and we get more strength and stability. That would be a good thing. IMO it's tough finding a truley brave malinois. These really are not brave dogs. Nervousness is a problem i some dogs. A lot Mals are chewy. These are all things we can improve upon.
Now we say that adding other breed to malinois will be it's downfall. What do you Consider downfall? That the malinois will become a labrador. Or it will become a moster like the Caucasian Mountain dog. I highly doubt it. The dog is just going to evolve. Evolution is going to happen, It's unstoppable. The Malinois is going to change no matter what. Nature always finds away...always.
No matter what we do the dog is going to be fine. even if we breed golden retrievers to it. It might not be what you or I want in a dog. But the dog will live on. Everything comes and goes. One day the Malinois, One way or another will past the torch as top working dog.
The other thing is. I do not breed Malinois as of yet. I do not plan on throwing other breeds into the lines. But as a friend told me. We are the Malinois. Raven,heldengebroed, Me, Danny, Saskia, Maritine and all the gang. We are the Malinois. There are few people out there who do not care and just breed to breed. They are side shows. I am not worried about them. Most people Involved with MAls are good dog owners and breeders. Doing the right things. So, maybe the question is...Is this really a threat to the Malinois as a breed.
Is some of the reactions driven by the fact that the breed mentioned is a Pitbull Terrier or because another breed is being mixed with the Mal. Because the later is already happening: X-Malinois.
Saskia
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He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
My reply's are based on trying to look at the subject not a malinois lover. I am trying to keep my wants and desires for malinois out of the argument. The terrier comment made little effct on my replies. Looking at from a non biased point of view. I really do not see a threat to the breed. Malinois are not delicate flowers that will fall apart if not given exactly what they need. They hardy creatures capable of adaptation. Now If I look at it from biased point of view. I am really leary of people tampering with the breed. My conccern is not if it will work or won't it. But What makes that breeder qualified to screw around like that. are they using real science to predict the outcome. or are they just rolling the dice, maybe ultimate dog....maybe freak show!
Hi everybody! Saskia, Hunden, Raven, I have missed chatting with you.
Very interesting topic. Interesting enough to bring me back from being just a spectator.
I see both sides of the argument and I think is big refelection of show/working ideas. Every breed was derived and created from mix-breedings right? All breeds were also developed by man for their wants or needs. Our wants and needs are also continually changing. Both working and "standards".
I believe part of dog breeding stems from a person's creativity and individuality. Even people who breed "purebred dogs" are trying to create their own personal ideal of the "perfect dog", are they not?
Working people want the fastest, toughest, biggest or whatever. The superdog that can jump 12feet, run 35 MPH, and bite like an alligator. Show and "standard" people want color, type, elegance, or whatever. They are still trying to create the perfect dog according to the written standard but still breed for their own personal ideal of this written standard. Then there are the people somewhere in between but all dogs breeders are trying to create their own idea of the "perfect dog".
There is a guy here in the US who created his own breed of dog. He is pretty well known and his dogs are beginning to succeed in working competitions. He threw a bunch of stuff in the mix; but from what I understand it is mostly Dutch Shepherds and Bull breeds. I think it is cool as hell and shows a true love and desire.
The Belgian dogs are maybe the best example of "cross-breeding". How many "breeds" or different types of dogs did it take to make four different varieties? Those varieties have been inter-bred between themselves.
Does anyone think that the Malinios is a great as it is because of cross-breeding? Boscaille, Deux Pottios, almost all the Dutch dogs. The great Elgos's pedigree wasn't correct. These are the names that have had a hugh influence on the malinios that past 30 years. Isn't there quite a brew-ha about a very succesful dog that is being bred quite heavily now?
Raven your example sounds like a bunch of yahoo's who really have no business breeding dogs. One of my all-time favorite Malinios was a police dog imported from Holland that no doubt had Pitt Bull in it.
It may seem I as though I am leaning toward one side. I am not. My point is if someone is a real breeder, responsible in their practices, and trying to create their own "perfect dog" who is one person to tell another what they are doing is wrong?
Nice talking to you guys again,
Christain
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"I have come to see my dogs as a reflection of my willingness to try to improve, as well as an unsparing measure of my frequent failures in doing so."
'Why mix with another breed when all we are looking for is in our own breed: the malinois???"
If you are selective enough and only use the right breeding stock you sure won't need any other breed to get good results.
Just my opinion
Couldn't have said it better Martine! If one feels they must use another breed to mix into the Mal genepool........Then perhaps they better be looking at THEIR breeding program! Something is definitely not right.
B
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"Desire is the key to motivation, but it's the determination and commitment to an unrelenting pursuit of your goal - a commitment to excellence - that will enable you to attain the success you seek."
I think were getting away from the question. Or are we? Does the Malinois have room to improve? Is it The perfect dog?
Think of it like this 2 malinois start off with a gene pool, a deck of cards each. the decks are similar. the dogs breed together. in a breeding each dog must through in a half of a deck, 26 cards each. 8 cards are the same (4 pairs). now the pup has it's own deck except it has 4 doubles. this dog breeds and the samething happens. now the following pup has 8 doubles. this dog breeds. one of those pairs gets a third similar card. this third card, nature can not handle. the rules of the breeding game says you cannot have triplets. so the card must be turned in for a joker (a new gene). this dog breeds with a dog that has joker also. the rules of the breeding says 2 jokers cannot co exist. so they form to make anew gene, a mutation. This mutation calls itself cleft pallet or heart arythemia.
I think that malinois is a wonderful breed. but, I do not think we should be foolish. To have a mind set that the malinois is elite and infierior to other breeds. It is not, It can fall victim to the same demise the German sheperd dog, rottwieler and doberman has. Adding fresh blood is not a matter weakness, but a matter of forward thinking. I also do not want to close my mind off to the possibility of the malinois becoming a stronger dog than it already is. In fact I hope someone has success and makes either a better malinios or a better breed. The thing that can shut that door faster than anything is to be arrogant to the idea there is no room to improve. That breeding a dog with dissimilar gene pool is somehow a bad thing. It can be, But on the other hand what if....The Malinois becomes even more a working machine than it already is.
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) you take a ferrari, start medling with it, remove something add something and you can come out with something that still looks great, has perfect design but drives like a bicycle.
