Hi there, I have a three year old groenendael. She has the drive of a malinois. I had alot of issues in agility because of her high drive and impulse, but worked very hard with her and eventually she moved to the top of her class. However, the other day she started to get freaky again, and I'm not sure why. I'm afraid she is going to revert back to her old behaviour.
Whenever she saw another dog running the course, she would FREAK OUT. She is not dog aggressive, however, if I were to let her go, I know she would chase the dog and kill it. She'd rear up, screaming like a dying husky, barking loudly, biting me, biting my hands and my clothes, chewing her leash in half in order to get away, flipping all over the place, etc. Once she got on the course, she wouldn't listen to a word I said. She would do every single piece of equipment in random order, several times in a row. Through the tunnel one way, and then back through it the other way, 10 times in a row. Up the A-frame, down the A-frame, up and down and up and down 10 times in a row at full speed.
I thought I had fixed it, she has been perfect the last month or so. She's been calm, has listened to everything I've said, she's done the courses perfectly, she's the best dog in the class. If she runs off to another piece of equipment, I can call her and she'll immediatly come back. I can leave her in a downstay and walk away from her and she will watch the other dogs running the course with only the slightest interest.
I had tried putting her into a down when she had a freakout, but it never worked, she always bit me when I did that. So instead I brought a muzzle to class and threatened her with it when she barked and screamed. I found that it was just as effective to use my hands to muzzle her, she hated that even more because I was stronger than a muzzle (at one point she tried to open her mouth while wearing it and ripped it in half). I always exercised her for hours before class to tire her out. She ran beside my bike for the most part. When she ran off course, I would put her in a down stay and then pull her off course to ruin her fun. If she bit me, I would flip her (hard to do with tons of people around though), though it wasn't very effective, she wasn't in her right mind. I gave her Stressex which didn't work, and moved on to Rescue Remedy which might be working, not sure. I distracted her as much as possible when the other dogs were running, with fun games and clicker training. I hung a toy from my treat pack for her to chew on when she became frustrated(she's chewed several in half already). I noticed that she was better when I exercised her by walking her, I think because it has more of a calming effect rather than really tiring her out, so I've been doing that.
And she's been fine, but just last class, I could hear a scream starting in her throat. I told her to shut up, and she did, but still it is worrisome that she may start up again.
Does anyone here have any tips for high drive dogs? I've had a malinois person tell me she's high drive for a malinois lol.
Well what I would do is to stop agillity for a while and take the dog away from the agillity course and see where she wouldn't respond to other dogs (that are running the course) anymore and start some obedience there and than slowly move towards the agillity course. At the end it should be possible to do obedience between the equipment and while dogs are doing agillity.
Trying to make the dog tired doesn't work in the long run it's only a short term solution since the dog gets in shape and is not tired anymore or when the dog is tired he/she will recouperate very fast and start the same behaviour again.
This is also very interesting:I thought I had fixed it, she has been perfect the last month or so. A dog never forgets bad behaviour in a month or so especially not when this behaviour has been there for a long time, in fact I don't think they will ever forget it. They will stop doing it because of training but if you give the dog some signals that everything is ok now they will go back to the old behaviour very fast. So what you did when she was trying to start howling , barking again was very good, but you have to keep the training shedule you have and that made her the way she was before the last training.
Trying to fight with a dog in high drive is not the best option cause they will resist very badly and it might end up in a bite (as you have experienced already). The best thing to do is stay as calm as possible and take the dog away from the field (as you already did) and start some obedience excercises. Well the rest I described above.
Don't know if this all works for her but this is what I would do with the dog.
Thanks for your reply, I have already stopped doing agility for periods of time (as we are still taking lessons and there are sometimes large gaps between lessons). We have already done obedience as well, we are trialling in obedience in less than a month to get her CD. We are starting more lessons next week though.
It isn't just at agility that she goes into drive either -- no matter where we are, if she sees another dog running, she will go into drive. It's just the biggest problem at agility.
I am attending a seminar held by a man who does agility with his high drive malinois and am told that he should hopefully have some solutions for me as well.
The only thing with being consistant with the training is that SHE is not consistant. I can't keep doing what I was doing before if she isn't showing the behaviour. As soon as she starts I can go back to doing what I was doing before, but what should I do now? I don't want her to revert back. She's been doing so well and we have our first fun trial in 12 days. I'm worried that the atmosphere of the trial might set her back into her old behaviour, or the way the classes are getting more into a "course" feel might set her back into it. The obedience thing is a good idea, I try to distract her with training as much as possible while the other dogs are taking their turn at class. She has been paying full attention to me for the past month --- before she wouldn't at all. But I did notice last class that her attention was sometimes pulled away. I'm going to see how she does tomorrow, maybe I'm just imagining things, I am so worried that she will go back to the way she was before; her breeder took her to a huge agility seminar and the organizer/teacher said that Visa was so dangerous that she shouldn't be in any sport, let alone agility. I was on the way to proving her wrong with how well Visa has been doing.
The only thing with being consistant with the training is that SHE is not consistant. I can't keep doing what I was doing before if she isn't showing the behaviour.
Dogtraining means that you have to be consistant, if the dog is consistant in training than that means that the dog knows the excercises so with her being not consistant means that she doesn't really understand right now that she has to obey or understand the excercise.
I would say just keep doing the obedience excercises eventhough she does them right and doesn't show the wrong behaviour, the only thing you don't have to do when she does it right is the corrections , the thing you have to do is to praise her constantly for her good behaviour/excercise. Try not to do it with a toy/ball cause that might wind her up again (food might be an option if she doesn't wind up because of that) and if toy and ball winds her up just praise her with your voice in a calm way, also talk to her in a calm way when you are doing the excercise.
Maybe you are trying to hard right now to prove that other people are wrong so you are putting loads of pressure on yourself and the dog?
And people saying that the dog is agressive, well what to do with that one. First of all the dog was with the breeder and not you so Visa might not have felt that comfortable eventhough she still knows the breeder so she might have shown some behaviour that she normally doesn't show.
Well I think that's it for now , time to take care of a whole bunch of dogs, malinois, tervueren and Jack Russel? ? Theo
Okay, I think first thing is to remove whatever is stimulating the dog. which is other dogs. We have to control this dogs enviorment. This will allow the dog to build up focus on you and make you the center of attention. to the point that dog does not care about other dogs. only you. I am wondering what brings you to the conclusion that the dog is not dog aggresive. If i walked into a room and saw and a dog chase down another dog and kill it. I would not say look, a non dog aggresive dog. So, i guess my next thought are you sure your dog's desire is to hurt the other dog or is it to just get on the course? If it is to get on the course. I would say that is not a problem that is an asset. but if your dog wants to get the other dog. you have to find away to change the emotional response the dog has when it sees another dog run the course. like the minute the dog sees another dog you tell the dog to watch and reward that with a treat. eventually the dog will become conditoned to seeing dogs and then looking to automatically. that is just one idea. I agree with theo, using force to make the dog comply is probably going to be a disaster. you said that when you used your hands the dog got more fired up. were moving in the wrong direction. this also does not teach anything. if we physically restrain the dog they are not learning. we are just delaying the inevitable. The hardest thing in training is getting a dog to do something because they must. I think your last statement was the most powerful you told her to be quite and she did. that's improvement. Also dome training on dogs is almost instant and some training seems to take forever. a good friend told me that sometimes dogs are like wet cement sometimes we cannot make the dry. and if we try to we get crappy cement that cracks. we just have to pick a training that the dog understands and keep doing it over and over. I also think that leaving the course, the dog does not understand that is a punishment. the only thing the dog remembers is the emotional state that the course creates. I also am confused why the dog has to witness other dogs running course. for me, with my dogs. i keep them in crates before training and they only come out immediatly before going on to the field. this might help. the dog is in the crate. comes out works with you, runs the course. has a good day, and then few more. and after awhile starts to associate the course with you and only you. and soon changes the emotional reaction the dog has at the course.
I also am confused why the dog has to witness other dogs running course.
That is not uncommon here in Belgium and standard practice at my club. The dogs are tied to the fence during the training. When asked why this was done we were told that it was to maximise the time of training. Needless to say that there are dogs that go through the roof.
Saskia
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Ive had groenendaels with very high drive and to be honest, if your dog starts going in gears and you cannot control her, you should consider not taking her to the place where this behaviour is triggered on most easily.
If I were you, I would concentrate on obedience, tracking and other sports where she has to concentrate and use her brain and be under your controll,and she would not get a chance to flip to the bad behaviour. When her obedience is on the level that you can controll her over the prey drive impulses you can start slowly going back to agility and do it so that she will get as less as possible the distraction which would trigger on her prey drive. CD is fairly easily achieved I would say, and to have a dog under controll she has to also respect you not only do "tricks" when motivated for it. Observe your dog in daily situations, demand respect from her in all situations, do obedience training even in daily things demanding her to sit/down stay when you need her to. With a dog with high drives, obedience is, I would say the only way to controll them. These dogs are demanding but if under controll, you have a brilliant and wonderful obedient dog that love to work!
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