I skip the dilemma of those pedigrees, and go little bit back to the coat lenght.
The only way to know, if some malinois is really producing ONLY malinois is to mate it with terv. If all pups are born as malinois, that malinois is purely dominant short hair. If one, just one of the pups is terv, he is not, but carries terv gene. All the other discussion is just guessing, as long as we don't see in genes just like that. Recessive gene for long coat can go over generations - maybe best example is right now Tyr. 5 pups, 3 tervs. I am not complaining
But really, what are you afrightened of with long coat? You can not be so simple that you still believe that shoite about long coated being softer and weaker. That is something that wonders me over and over again. I mean the working mal-pup doesn't turn to showline just when having a longer coat, does it
J
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I mean the working mal-pup doesn't turn to showline just when having a longer coat, does it
Absolutely right! And there shouldn't be any prejudice. Any dog that can do the work is a good dog, no matter the coat
Only thing I wanted to say in my previous answers is that there isn't any terv offspring in the NVBK lines nowadays, but this doesn't mean that I prefer short coat. A good dog is a good dog!
Only thing I prefer about short coat is the practical stuff: less grooming, dries faster when wet after the training,... but this hasn't to do anything with quality
"Meisterschaft vom nationaal Verbond der Belgische Kynologen (NVBK) .
1963, nach einem vorhergehenden Streit unter anderem ?ber Ringregeln, entschieden sich die Antwerpener unabh?ngig zu werden und spalteten sich vom SRSH ab und bildeten einen Dissidenzverein. Viele Arbeitsclubs die im Ringsport arbeiteten schlossen sich an , ebenso sehr ber?hmte Hundef?hrer. Kiener (LOSH 197867) gewann 1963 noch den gro?en Preis von Belgien beim Saint-Hubert um dann beim NVBK zu starten, wo er dreimal den Titel gewann. Kiener war sehr talentiert und extrem intelligent. Aber auch zu gro?, das brachte ihm R?ckenprobleme ein, auch hatte er sehr gro?e Ohren. Kiener war ?ber seine Mutter Criquette LOSH 166749 Enkel von dem legend?ren und ber?hmten Sirol. Sirol hat gro?en Einflu? auf die heutigen Gebrauchshundelinien. ?ber Carak und Notter wurde mit Xjelaba und vor allem seinem Sohn Othar Noaillerie seine Blutlinie in Frankreich eingef?hrt. Ebenso ?ber Cibo Meulderhof und dessen Sohn Ultra Domaine Cam?l?on. Weiter z?hlt zu seinen Nachfahren Sandor des Foudriots und vor allem Cartouche. Seine Nachkommen Ivan, Horsy Deux Pottois , Athos und vor allem G’Bibber haben gro?e Einflu? auf die Zucht.
M. Varlet hat den sehr interessanten Gedanken das diese Vielfalt von Vereinigungen und Klubs mit jeweils verschiedenen Ringpr?fungen eine Chance f?r den Malinois. Es erlaubt Arbeitshunde aus g?nzlich verschiedenen Zuchtlinien zu sehen, welche in verschieden Pr?fungstypen getestet werden." DMC, Gesichte des malinois
Same in Finnish from site of Aktivistin, so you believe I understand this.
"Kiener (LOSH 197867) voitti 1963 Belgian suuren palkinnon ja siirtyi sitten NVBK:hon, miss? voitti mestaruuden kolmasti. Kiener oli hyvin lahjakas ja ?lyk?s koira. Mutta my?s liian suuri, mik? aiheutti sille selk?ongelmia. Sill? oli my?s hyvin suuret korvat. Kiener oli ?itins? Criquetten (LOSH 166749) kautta kuuluisan Sirolin j?lkel?inen. Sirolilla on suuri merkitys nykyp?iv?n k?ytt?malinoislinjoille. Sirolin verilinja on levinnyt Ranskassa ennen kaikkea Othar Noaillerien kautta. Othar oli is?ns? Xjelaban, is?nis?ns? Notterin ja is?nis?nis?ns? Carakin (Sirolin poika) kautta Sirol-linjaa. My?s Cibo Meulderhof ja sen poika Ultra Domaine Cameleonin ovat jatkaneet Sirol-linjaa Ranskassa (Ultra on ?itins? Jessie du Haut Tessonin kautta flappilaisia). Sirolin perillisi? ovat my?s Sandor des Foudriots ja ennen kaikkea Cartouche. Sen j?lkel?isill? Ivan ja Horsy Deux Pottois, Athos ja ennen kaikkea G’Bibber on suuri vaikutus jalostukseen."
IF Bibber is NOT behind long coat in lines, where does it come from? Sirol mentioned above as a line, Cartouche as his heir and as Bibbers sire seems to exist also in Atos's pedi and that produces loads of tervs. And if you start with his maternal line, we have a showmal from those same lines in Finland. Not a one single terv in 17 years. Letters NVBK don't change the letters DNA. And I don't mean finnish phonecompany now
That you just put all longcoated down before registration, doesn't affect in that, that the gene is still there. And surprise, also Sirol is several times behind all nowadays tervbased showtervs too.
Martine. Now I don't buy that "no tervs in NVBK". None does, who has some ideas of pedigrees. That you don't see them doesn't mean they don't exist.
But maybe this is enough of pedigrees and coats. We all believe what we want to believ in ground we found thru experience.
J
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That you just put all longcoated down before registration, doesn't affect in that, that the gene is still there. And surprise, also Sirol is several times behind all nowadays tervbased showtervs too.
Martine. Now I don't buy that "no tervs in NVBK". None does, who has some ideas of pedigrees. That you don't see them doesn't mean they don't exist.
I don't see why the longcoated should be put down if there were any No breeder would do that because the coat doesn't affect the quality.
And of course, if you go back far enough, there always will be Terv, Groenendael and GSD somewhere. With Sirol you are talking of almost 50 yrs ago... I couldn't tell if he had terv genes, because I'm not THAT old but at that time this could have been possible yes. The last terv I saw in the NVBK trials was more then 25 years ago and it was J. Fierens' Chekka.
Nowadays the terv % in the nvbk litters is 0% as far as I know. If the genes can go back for about 50yrs however, then I won't deny that there could be tervs when you mix with a terv.
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Cartouche as his heir and as Bibbers sire seems to exist also in Atos's pedi and that produces loads of tervs
Maybe, but from Cartouche it would be more likely to get GSD then...
Quote:I mean the working mal-pup doesn't turn to showline just when having a longer coat, does it
Here it pretty much does in some respect. The show mals that I have seen, definatly are on the border of fluffy. My Mals short coat wouldn't get any notice here if I was at a show.
So this farm dog mother of G'bibber.........know who she is?
Hi, Jeff, then I have to present sire of 3 tervs, our fluffy Tyr, almost a showdog:
Well, after seeing Tyr, I made a completely new definition for a gorgeous malinois, and I am fuzzydice tervbreeder, so...? And Yep, he is G'Bibber line. Odd job, that he doesn't look more GSD, isn't it...?
J
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>>And Yep, he is G'Bibber line. Odd job, that he doesn't look more GSD, isn't it...
This is true...I mean that Tyr is a handsome boy...Well he was not quite so handsome as a pup but he definitely turned into a 'swan' as he got older...However...Tyr is a CLONE of his mother...So why would he look like a GSD?? I would say the maternal line came out very strong in him. It's as if his father, g-father and gg-grandfather didn't even exist...
Brigita
PS...And I'm not sure I would call him fluffy lol....
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"Desire is the key to motivation, but it's the determination and commitment to an unrelenting pursuit of your goal - a commitment to excellence - that will enable you to attain the success you seek."
Tyr is a CLONE of his mother...So why would he look like a GSD?? I would say the maternal line came out very strong in him.
This in his looks? His behavior/drive? Or all of the above? He's too tall and leggy for my tastes in that pic at least, because I like my Mals smaller. 60-odd lbs in my males and females running close in size as well. Small and scorch the ground fast. Speed can cost you points, but it sure can save plenty too.
He's gorgeous though. Love the coloration, and definition he has. Very nice dog.
In Holland Terv. born in Mal litters are registred as mal. If they turn out to be longhaired you can have the pedigree changed when the dog is a year old. The dog needs to be judged first by two judges of the dutch kennelclub (RVBH) So in Holland we have mals running arround the fields that loke like Terv. and some stay Mal on the pedigree all there lives
Jeannet
NOPE........not true, you can let terv be registered in the litter as a terv already in a mal litter (experience ) I had 2 pups who I suspected of being terv at 4 weeks, one of them changed really to short hair between 4 and 5 weeks, the other one still kept a completely different coatstructure as the other puppies and also longer, so then when the chipper came I had him registered as a terv without any problems.....
Tyr is a CLONE of his mother...So why would he look like a GSD?? I would say the maternal line came out very strong in him.
This in his looks? His behavior/drive? Or all of the above? He's too tall and leggy for my tastes in that pic at least, because I like my Mals smaller. 60-odd lbs in my males and females running close in size as well. Small and scorch the ground fast. Speed can cost you points, but it sure can save plenty too.
He's gorgeous though. Love the coloration, and definition he has. Very nice dog.
Hi J!
Well he'd be about 7 (come May)...So yeah the graying is to be expected...Looks/structure/profile: mother! Bite Drive: balance between the father and mother! EXTREME civil drive: mother's side (mother was not...but what's behind the mother)! Behavior: Mother's side! Coat: Both sides! Full Bite: paternal side! Fight drive (lack of another term): mother's side! Size 26+" and although he looks thin in the photo...fluctuated between 75-80 lbs) Incredible entries, fight, hardness of bite!!!! Totally off the charts...He'll get the job done and then some!!! One handler dog. Not social; but without a doubt a dog that you would want in a seedy alley!! (in a country w/out lawsuits!) Retains things well--memory/training/people wise...
Retrieves, pack drive, motivation (agility, tracking) on a lower scale.
But if I were to put that all together and 'generalize'...I would say he tends to lean much more toward the maternal side across the board than the paternal side...
Hope that answered some of your questions...Figured you'd come back w/more...So I elaborated; to beat you to it! LOL
Hope all is going well w/you!
B
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"Desire is the key to motivation, but it's the determination and commitment to an unrelenting pursuit of your goal - a commitment to excellence - that will enable you to attain the success you seek."
You are right some mal/tervs are registered as Terv right away, the rules are like I explaned. They were made up somewere arround 1998. Before 1998 Tervs with official f.c.i. regocnised pedigrees from other countries were placed in Bijlage G-0 registration in Holland so were Tervs. born in Mal litters. I'm happy to hear yours wil go true live with a name that suits his apperance
Thats interesting to see and hear. Its always interesting to see dogs that take after whats on their mothers side. Secretariet's sons were never any world class horses. But what his daughters produced (Secratariet Grandsons)....MUCH different story.
Who's on his mothers side?
He reproducing any of those traits? How about his daughter(s) or sons?
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I would say the maternal line came out very strong in him. It's as if his father, g-father and gg-grandfather didn't even exist... 
