IMO the only way to get a true, all black "Malinois" is to breed a Groenendael with a Malinois. But the dogs that people are calling black "Malinois" generally aren't, they are KNPV bred dogs that have a little of this, a little of that, and a lot of Malinois in their pedigree. Unless they go back to that one Groen who did KNPV, I believe the name was Astor.
But just because it's a Belgian, and it has short hair, that doesn't automatically make it a Malinois. Technically the black short haired dogs are no more properly called a Malinois then they would be properly called a short haired Groenedael. The Malinois is the short coated, fawn/mahogany, black masked Belgian Shepherd. The Groendael is the long haired, black, Belgian Shepherd. The short coated dog who is all black is a It's a BSD without a variety.
I don't agree on the matter. There are still black Malinois. In Belgium there are 2 kennelclubs. SH (who everybody knows) en Kennel Club Belge. They have a different breed standard than the one we know. Black Malinois are allowed there.
If a BSD is short haired it is automatically a Malinois (like a long-haired fauve becomes automatically a terv) whether or not the color is acceptable. It is a much a Malinois as the blue one, the back and tan and the fauve. It is only a disqualifying color.
Black is also a recessive color. 2 Tervs can produce Groenendael. 2 Fauve Mali's are theoretically able to produce black Mali's
Saskia
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He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
This is correct...simply put; the market in NA determines which direction a breed goes.? I can't begin to tell you how many people I have refused to sell a puppy to...because their first question was? what color is it?? How dark is it?? That's from so called WORKING people!?
But in all fairness, I have had people contact me for a CORRECT/classical coloured Malinois.? To those I don't object if they are looking at work and CORRECT colouring...Because they seem to have in mind what is BEST for the breed...NOT what is a 'fad' or personal preference, or 'flavour of the month'...
Again I think it comes down to...WHY is a specific individual BREEDING?? Once you understand their motives; then you can decide if you wish to go with them or run like he**.
B
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"Desire is the key to motivation, but it's the determination and commitment to an unrelenting pursuit of your goal - a commitment to excellence - that will enable you to attain the success you seek."
Kadi...I agree with you on the black Mal issue...Somewhere you're bound to see ANDOR!
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"Desire is the key to motivation, but it's the determination and commitment to an unrelenting pursuit of your goal - a commitment to excellence - that will enable you to attain the success you seek."
>>I've said for YEARS that working people are just as looks oriented as show people.
Not quite
If a breeder told a show person that he had two pups/dogs...one was an incredible worker but average at best in show TYPE...and they had another that was AWESOME in SHOW TYPE and had already won some of his classes...BUT was only average at best at workability...I will bet you 99.9% of SHOW people are going to pick the second!
For MOST work people...having a WORKING dog that also looks NICE is important...they like to have the whole package...but NOT at the expense of workability.? They will sacrifice on type long before they will sacrifice on workability.? There is THE difference.? If they can have BOTH...They are very happy...but in the order of workability first and TYPE second...
Giving the same option to a true working person as in the first paragraph...They will pick the FIRST pup/dog.? So given we know that TYPE is much easier to 'fix' or 'recover' than workability...Which is the right choice? IMHO, it's hardly a 'decision'...
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"Desire is the key to motivation, but it's the determination and commitment to an unrelenting pursuit of your goal - a commitment to excellence - that will enable you to attain the success you seek."
Why does it become clear here that respectable work people would not buy a great work puppy because of white or blue.
Again everything depends on the definition of "working capability" because that second puppy might have exactly what the breeder/person is looking for. So that person gets an all package deal in his opinion.
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that TYPE is much easier to 'fix' or 'recover' than workability
I heard type breeders say just the opposite
Saskia
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He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
a breeder told a show person that he had two pups/dogs...one was an incredible worker but average at best in show TYPE...and they had another that was AWESOME in SHOW TYPE and had already won some of his classes...BUT was only average at best at workability...I will bet you 99.9% of SHOW people are going to pick the second!
Might be they would pick the second one, but I have met some (like 10+) show people who in the first place start talking about his dog's working abilities and how great he does work and after that they say that differently from other ones he also looks great so thats in their mind comes great BSD in full package work+outlook.
its funny, because I myself didnt look at colour when picking a puppy out of the litter, the thing I looked for before making a decision was the lines and the working capabilities of those lines, only Damien was partly picked on his colour because Marinus wanted a black one, but after that decision we started to look for good working lines who happend to be black and then there was Damien who came back to the breeder because he wasnt that much suited to be a "normal" pet without working him....... but all the otherones are purely picked on working capabilities, with Ace I really wanted a male and had last choice, but at the moment I picked him I didnt look it it was a male or a female, I had third choice from the litter and there were 3 males and 2 females and I picked him from the last 3, so I could have easily come home with a female at that moment (after making a decision we looked if it was a male or female........haha......)
with Umi I trusted the breeder of what he told us about her before we took the car to drive over 500 km to pick her up and when we came there it was as he told us (drives....) so that is why we took her and she still lives up to what I had in mind when chosing for her lines (after having seen her half-sister work the summer before..... ) but the funny thing was that when we took her to the club they said..........didnt you want a red one (and she isnt that deep red), ehhhh, yes, but working capabilities are more important, so it is nice to have a nice warm maghony deep red BSD (the colour I really like) but it isnt THAT important to let a good dog stay at the breeder for that reason.....
the same with Delwyn, but this was more difficult to rely on the breeder, because there was a language problem (we dont speak French and he didnt spoke English or dutch) so when we were there to pick her up we chose the puppy as how it was at that moment (with in mind the lines behind her and how they are as we heard from others and as for what we saw ourselves......)
but the funny thing was that with our last (and first ) litter the people that were on the list for 3rd choice female first said they would confirm at 5 weeks when they saw the puppies (because of the drives and how they would be there at that age) but at 3 weeks they cancelled because of the colour......so yes there are people (working people) who also have priorities at the colours...
Martine, this means when you would select a puppy from a litter and the best puppy at that time, when looking at working qualities, would have a large white patch and a white sock (meaning a complete white foot), you would not pick this one but go with a lesser dog just because of this?
In this case I wouldn't pick any. For me working ability comes first but when I pick a pup, the looks matter to me too. I want a compact pup with correct body structure and teeth and a nice confident attitude. That's just all you can select upon in a litter. It is impossible to see working ability at this age but you can at least see to it that the pup is good looking. When he turns out not good enough for high level competition afterwards, then at least he is good looking and it will be easier to place him. That's my opinion.
My dogs certainly aren't show types but they are good looking and real malinois type. They don't look in the least like the "high legged" and "long eared" type you often see in some German lines.
On another board someone said something about about A'Tim like "when it looks even only a little bit like a mal then they call it a mal"... Well I wonder then how he could get "Very Good" at a CAC Beauty Show We couldn't even present him in "working class" because NVBK isn't FCI recognized so for FCI he wasn't considered a "working dog" and we had to present him in "open class" where all the super beauties were so this was a very good result.
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If I have a phenominal pup/dog right in front of my face.....I become colorblind
I do too but not for a pup and on condition it doesn't go too far (and the dog really is absolutely super quality). I've seen nice looking dogs with "some" white on the chest, but white paws "no". I wouldn't care about colour either as long as it isn't blue.
but the funny thing was that with our last (and first Wink) litter the people that were on the list for 3rd choice female first said they would confirm at 5 weeks when they saw the puppies (because of the drives and how they would be there at that age) but at 3 weeks they cancelled because of the colour......so yes there are people (working people) who also have priorities at the colours... Reply
But thats strange because it is nothing wrong with colours of your females. Is it because of beeing too dark or not being red? On other hand maybe they didnt find some other reason of telling that they can't buy puppy at the moment.
When I was picking up puppy I didn't care about white on his chest even it was big one.
but then my friend was picking up his one we left alone those 3 blue ones in the litter.
Saskia are you telling me that show people would choose the dog below in the pic as long as it could work?? Or that show people would ever have chosen Elgos or Cheyenne??? I think we all know better.? ?
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"Desire is the key to motivation, but it's the determination and commitment to an unrelenting pursuit of your goal - a commitment to excellence - that will enable you to attain the success you seek."
That is not what I said, I said it depends on your definition of working.
Everybody has a different opinion on what working is. For some people working means BR, KNPV etc. For some people I know working is Agility (and it puts a shiver around their spine when you talk about bite work). I know a breeder here in Belgium who's new found purpose in life is breeding BSD for the blind and she considers this as true working.
For you that first puppy is the puppy of your choice, no doubt about that. That second puppy might be a complete package for the second person who wants an agility dog if that pup was a fast one with short turns. And neither puppy will suite the purpose of the 3rd one.
So whether or not a puppy is a complete package depends on what you want for that dog.
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We couldn't even present him in "working class" because NVBK isn't FCI recognized so for FCI he wasn't considered a "working dog" and we had to present him in "open class" where all the super beauties were so this was a very good result.
If I would have competed in ring 4 in SH with Yentos, I would have never been able to present him in working class. You need an ECU test (tracking inclusive) or IPO1
Saskia
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He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
I think it depends for what purpouse you are buing a puppy. I suppose that if you don't have any intentions whatsoever to use the dog for breeding in the future it doesn't matter if it has too much white on the chest or leg, if it doesn't bother your own eye.
But if you consider using the pup for breeding in the future if it turns out to be of breeding quality mentally, then it would not be appropriate to choose a blue puppy, or one that has too much white according to the breeding standrad.
When I bought my dog, and when I will buy next one, the mentality is the most important thing, but even I can't deny that the look of the parents have some "hidden" influence on me. And of course I want a dog that looks like a malinois when I buy one (I don't mean conformation type). I wouldn't buy a puppy with disqualifying colours in case the dog in the future would turn out to be of breeding quality. I agree with workingmalinois, you can't tell from a puppy if he's wrong colorations would be worth his workability in the future.
I am not a breeder, but could consider it in the future if I would end up with a really good dog, that's why I personally would not dare to buy a pup with too much white for exemple, even if it doesn't bother me estethically. It's not all about colours, I would never consider a puppy from parents with missing teeth (ok, maybe a p1, but the pups might miss other teeth) or a flapping ear or something else disqualifing.
The white on the picture Marius posted is fine. You can't deny that there is a lot of white but as long as the white doesn't go all the way to the troat in one single patch, there is nothing wrong
Saskia
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He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
Posted by: Saskia Insert Quote The white on the picture Marius posted is fine. You can't deny that there is a lot of white but as long as the white doesn't go all the way to the troat in one single patch, there is nothing wrong
Malinois and BSD is very young breed in Lithuania and we trying to get all the best whats possible form Europe and world. I'm not show man and I would prefer not to go to shows but if you want to use male or female for breeding you have to go to at least 3 shows in open class and have to get get Exelent in all of them for male and very good for female. So I had to take Kenzie to shows and he have won 2 times BOB and 1 time time he have won BOB against pure lined show mal. Ok you may say that we dont have good judges here, I can agree with that but usually judges coming from all over the europe to Lithuania as well:) So that white patch doesn't have any infulence nor to his work nor to his show results:)
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It's a BSD without a variety.
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