Saskia started this by asking working dog people about color. Working people and show people often argue about looks vs working ability. The rallying cry of all working dog breeders is "I don't care what it looks like as long as dog works."? I would like to give breeders something to think about from a law enforcement perspective.
A cop wants to start a K9 program with there department. There are usually two ways.
1) The department is for a K9 and works to provide a budget to justify the money. Cost of a dog, training for the team, Vehicle, food/kennel/vet care, estimated overtime for the officer, etc, etc. These budgets (especially if you get a new vehicle) can run over $100,000. So the officer goes to the chief of police who goes to the city manager/mayor/city counsel to get the money.
2) The officer works for an agency who doesn't really want a k9 or care to put forth any money for the program.? So He/She pays for a dog out of their own pocket. Trains with other people (often having to decoy for numerous dogs to get their dog worked.)? Agrees to take an old vehicle and make the necissary modifications themselves with their own time, labor, and money. etc, etc, etc.
Either way, at some point the officer/dog have to present themselves to the administration. Officer #1 has to justify $100,00 of taxpayers money. Officer #2 has to present themselves to an administration that does not necessarily want a k9 program. These people don't know anything about working dogs. They can't tell the difference between a fear biter and the worlds most couragous dog. They are expecting a beautiful German Shepherd named Rin Tin Tin. Do you think what a dog looks like matters in this situation?
On the street, when I am getting my butt kicked, I don't care what the dog looks like. I don't care if it is a pit bull, poodle, or mexican hairless if it can do the job. But I can say in my opinion as a "working dog guy" what a dog looks like can matter very much.
Just thought I would throw this out there and give people something to think about.
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"I have come to see my dogs as a reflection of my willingness to try to improve, as well as an unsparing measure of my frequent failures in doing so."
Working people do care about the looks of thier dog but it comes second. If the dog has a green and a brown eye doesn't matter that much for us because it doesn't influences the performances of the dog. At the end of the day a trained mal, even with a floppy ear and two differnet eyes but with a bodybuilders muscletone and the speed of a rocket will impress the administration. THe best way to convince them is to put them into a suit. let them take one GSD and one Mal. Have done it once with a "nonbeliever". Was a great experience especially because the mal was realy tiny in comparison with the huge GSD.
Well the strange thing was, and also the reason I posted the question, that I saw this emphasis on dark dogs only with working malinois breeders and they were the last ones I would expect this from.
If I would have gone for color when choosing between Yentos and Yorick, I would have chosen Yorick. I have only 1 picture of Yentos at the kennel (you can find this one on the site) all the others were from Yorick. But I went with personality and not color. My luck was that Yentos got a very red color with not too much charbonnage.
Saskia
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He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
I think PO's/depts are in a difficult position simply due to the PR and lawsuits which seem to overwhelm NA.? I think many issues are geographically specific and we have to respect that.? I had one individual/client who does security type of work with 'Homeland security' tell me that they had a meeting and it was decided that they definitely did NOT want a GSD or a Rottie representing them on the streets--and definitely NOT 'black'---again due to public stereotyping...however, the public must and is taken into consideration here (NA)....
In many aspects...esp...PR work...the LESS intimidating the dog appears extrinsically...ie., colour--the better...This particular dept. definitely did NOT want any DARK dog...They wanted a dog that could certainly perform his/her job...but at the same time they also didn't want a dog that would intimidate others due to his looks/colour...IOW...neutrality/non threatening when NOT working was vital.
Another individual I have known for a number of years...had a seminar in Europe and he took a dog that was VERY dark (Malinois) with a lot of 'charbonne'...The seminar was at an IPO club...The members told him that the dog lacked the classical CORRECT coloring as they put it...and no matter how well he worked...They would be hesitant using him for breeding or getting one of his pups....As that wasn't 'correct' for the Malinois.
In NA in general and not specific...I honestly think colour/shade (whether light/classical or dark)? is a FAD and specific to individuals or groups...Again...in THIS reply I am NOT speaking of structure...simply COLOUR/shade.
B
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"Desire is the key to motivation, but it's the determination and commitment to an unrelenting pursuit of your goal - a commitment to excellence - that will enable you to attain the success you seek."
Well the strange thing was, and also the reason I posted the question, that I saw this emphasis on dark dogs only with working malinois breeders and they were the last ones I would expect this from.
If I would have gone for color when choosing between Yentos and Yorick, I would have chosen Yorick.? I have only 1 picture of Yentos at the kennel (you can find this one on the site) all the others were from Yorick.? But I went with personality and not color.? My luck was that Yentos got a very red color with not too much charbonnage.
Saskia
Which proves that even for working people looks count to; all be it in a second place
To me colour doens't really matter, I go for working quality. However, if I have the choice , I prefer a nice deep red coat and dark chest and mask.
I do think looks should matter, also for a working dog. They don't have to be show types, because they weren't bred to be, but they should have a correct body structure and good bones. In a litter, I'd never pick a blue pup as this colour is completely in contradiction to the standard. IMO blue coats should be banned from breeding stock too. I don't like much "white" either, so I'll never pick a pup with a white chest or white on the paws.
When I would have the chance to buy an adult dog and he would be absolutely super quality, then I would "close my eyes " for a little white on the chest, but I'd never take a blue one.
Martine, this means when you would select a puppy from a litter and the best puppy at that time, when looking at working qualities, would have a large white patch and a white sock (meaning a complete white foot), you would not pick this one but go with a lesser dog just because of this?
Saskia
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He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
Martine, this means when you would select a puppy from a litter and the best puppy at that time, when looking at working qualities, would have a large white patch and a white sock (meaning a complete white foot), you would not pick this one but go with a lesser dog just because of this?
Saskia
I can't awnser for Martine but i wouldn't choes one
OK. So you would rather miss the opportunity of having a great working dog because of this white patch even when this dog appeals to you in every other way?
For me this indeed would present a problem since a white sock is a disqualifying fault and I would not be able to show him and this is the same for the blue Mali.
Saskia
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He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
There are videos of a blue Malinois at this URL http://www.frenchtrainer.com/forsale_dogs.htm? He was a dog in our club, although he was just sold (website needs to be updated).? Good looking dog, except for the eyes.? But light eyes are my biggest pet peeve, I'd rather have a white chest or sock than light eyes.? And the genetics of the blue dogs are going to mean the dog always has light eyes, kind of a weird yellow/grey color.? However, a good dog is a good dog, and last time I looked when the dog is working the decoys didn't judge the eyes, but the strength of the grip.? I definitely wouldn't go out looking to find a blue dog, but I wouldn't write a dog off immediately just because of the color.
The sire of this dog has produced quite a few blues.? However, blue is a recessive, which means the dams are also carriers of the color.?
The blue color has been in the Malinois gene pool for a long time.? I have a DB that contains dogs all the way back to the original dogs, and a search on color will show a lot of dogs who were listed as blue.? Also, as a recessive, it can "hide" in the gene pool for a long time without people realizing it.? A quick google search for "Blue Malinois" will bring up lots of pages with dogs.? And if you look at the pedigrees, some of these dogs parents/grandparents are dogs that appear a lot throughout the gene pool.
These are some blue dogs.? You can see the funny eye color in the sitting pup.
I already did a search for blue malinois and indeed I found a lot of pages with Blue Malinois but rarely I found a pedigree to go with the dog.
Saskia
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He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
Well the strange thing was, and also the reason I posted the question, that I saw this emphasis on dark dogs only with working malinois breeders and they were the last ones I would expect this from
Maybe some of us are not so different as we may think.
B----You talked about public image in regards to law enforcement and were right on. We also have to contend with the administration thinking "lawsuit". My example of officer #2 is the situation I will be facing. A big reason why I am looking for a female. Psycologically less intimidating to the higher ups! (It's just a little girl dog) As for officer #1 if they bring some ragged looking, not nicely marked dog, with 8 inch ears pointed at an angle that would benifit flying, they are going to think" We just spent $100,000 dollars on that?" Again, I was just throwing this out there for breeders to think about.
What do people think about Elgos and his contribution in relation to the increased number of darker dogs?
I will take a white patch for an Elgos grip anyday!
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"I have come to see my dogs as a reflection of my willingness to try to improve, as well as an unsparing measure of my frequent failures in doing so."
I've said for YEARS that working people are just as looks oriented as show people. They just happen to have a different definition of good looking than many show people. And are more willing to give on looks to get certain working traits. Right here on this board people have said they would not take a pup, regardless of how nice it's working potential was, if it was a certain color, or had white in certain spots, etc. But if you ask a working person about their dog, one of the first three things they will mention is the look. If it's dark, light, ugly (in their eyes), etc. If it's a really good looking dog, it's one of the first 2 things they mention How many times have you heard someone say, about the sire of their future pup "he's a really big, thick, dark red dog who bites like an alligator" Looks first, working attributes second. I had an exceptional dog many years ago, that only a few people bred to. And the reason people gave for not breeding to him, other then being concerned that his pups would be to hard to handle, was his looks. To much white, and to dark (at the time, dark was not in vogue). I get people all the time who contact me, looking for a pup of a certain color, certain amount of white, that will also make FRIII or SchIII. But they won't take the pup I feel is the best in the litter because of a white patch on it's chest, they want the pup I think is pet quality because it's red, with no white. Or the people who have approached me wanting to breed their dog to one of my girls. Not one word about pedigree, if she works, etc just "I've been looking for a female that color to breed my dog to for a long time, what to breed them?". I'll never believe that working people truely don't care about looks.
Right here on this board people have said they would not take a pup, regardless of how nice it's working potential was, if it was a certain color, or had white in certain spots, etc.
That was one of the things that suprised me as I never expected this outcome on my question.
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Maybe some of us are not so different as we may think.
Apparently not
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He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
wow, its nice to hear all different opinions on the matter. While I'm sure everyone has thier own color preference, (I'll admit I do) I think working ability should outshine everything else when selecting a working dog, other than health. If I have a phenominal pup/dog right in front of my face.....I become colorblind Although I'm not a fan of 'blue' or that extemely washed out white w a mask, working ability comes first. I have a couple dogs now that don't have the classic fawn/dark mask look but I dont really care. I don't mind some white on the chest or paws either. Another touchy color subject.....'black' malinois. Seen alot of 'breeders' advertise this color malinois. I have seen a few black&tan malinois that were from 100% malinois parents/bloodline but I have only seen all black with malinois that are bred with dutch shepherds. Thoughts???
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~Stephanie O'Brien Fat Louie Des Barriques FR III 2007 NARA Overall Domestic Champion
Author
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, I prefer a nice deep red coat and dark chest and mask.
" for a little white on the chest, but I'd never take a blue one.
I've said for YEARS that working people are just as looks oriented as show people. They just happen to have a different definition of good looking than many show people. And are more willing to give on looks to get certain working traits. Right here on this board people have said they would not take a pup, regardless of how nice it's working potential was, if it was a certain color, or had white in certain spots, etc. 
as I never expected this outcome on my question.
Although I'm not a fan of 'blue' or that extemely washed out white w a mask, working ability comes first. I have a couple dogs now that don't have the classic fawn/dark mask look but I dont really care. I don't mind some white on the chest or paws either. 
I have seen a few black&tan malinois that were from 100% malinois parents/bloodline but I have only seen all black with malinois that are bred with dutch shepherds. Thoughts???
