I am not saying that those of you that disagree with me are wrong.? Just that I have had a different experience.? I raised my current police dog from an eight week old puppy.? He lives in the house with me, sleeps at the foot of my bed.? He is not an overly dominant dog either.? He is much better controlled than the average police dog and has won twenty plus trophies in police competition. He is also an effective police dog.? ?I, like you thought that there was no way my dog would attack me in the above scenario, but he did.? I was able to redirect him to the badguy as soon as he realized it was me but I would have been bitten severely had the dog not been in muzzle.? Prior to this incident I had done many handler protection scenarios.
Again I am not saying you are wrong, just that my well bonded, exceptionally trained police dog went after me when I was on the ground being assaulted by a decoy.? If this dog will do it than any dog could.? ?I guess what I am saying is that it is my opinion that you need to train for this before it happens in a real situation.? I can't speculate as to why it happens, just that I have seen it happen more often than not.
Again I am not saying you are wrong, just that my well bonded, exceptionally trained police dog went after me when I was on the ground being assaulted by a decoy.? If this dog will do it than any dog could.? ?
I guess what I am saying is that it is my opinion that you need to train for this before it happens in a real situation.?
Jeff, you are right: you need to train every thinkable tactical deployment and situation.
I have seen many handlers bitten by dogs also ((however funny all handlers I have seen bitten were in USA or in KNPV !! --just a fact--)). When I give another Beyond Boundaries seminar in USA we should figure out if we could manage to set up such seminar in your area. In that seminar I could provide you with lots of tactical situations where you will see the dog, who is not trained properly, will go after the handler and not decoy. When you get some special training as I give and you will see the problem disappear.
--To Pete Mitchell: you talked about your scenario. With that in mind I can put my hands in fire the dogs I named never ever will bite handler: these dogs I trained special. --
Why? It is a very useful question. I find that when it is answered or attempted to be answered, It can instigate thought provoking discussion. The way people answer, or not answer, often gives us insight on their thoughts, knowlege, or intentions. Sometimes people's intentions are so blatant there is no need to attempt to bring them to light.
"Why" can also defeat a purpose. It seems as though we seem to think this is a personal relationship/training issue. To say that all the dogs/handlers had poor relationships, or that the many different trainers these people trained with were bad; is a very arrogant statement. Over 100 dogs and I don;t know how many trainers but many of them very good.? We did this scenario withour club members with similar results. The personal dogs did have fewer bites on the handler BUT it had nothing to do with the relationship/training. It had everything to do with the dogs being of a lesser temperment. They were hesitant to engage and that hesitation gave the handler time to direct the dog on the correct person. Is this good or bad? Depends on how you look at it. I can tell you my relationship with my dog was as strong as anyone's could be. I titled my dog in three different dog sports and have trained with some very good trainers. I can be totally full of crap with my theory. I don't think so but maybe. Attempting to explain myself in this situation has defeated the purpose of my starting this in the first place.
I can't force anyone to believe me nor do I intend to. All I can do is provide the knowlege and experience I possess. When we do this with the officers we do it as a surprise scenario on purpose. Nobody believes it until it happens to them. My main goal is to provide info so that it does not happen when we need our dogs the most.
We often get very caught up in our own little world or ideas. I try to get people to think beyond that. Why that threatens people so much I don't know. On the mean streets of the USA, this scenario happens every single day. Sad but true. Think about if this really happened. Talk about a bad situation getting worse. If it is the officer and the bad guy gets his/her weapon they are dead. If this happens to you, maybe you get lucky and get away with a stolen wallet, a good ass kicking, and a dog bite. I sincerly hope this never happens to anyone.
As my negative karma increase i am finding it hard to stay positive or to not take it personally. I am also finding it difficult to restrain myself when someone with an agenda addresses me personally. I know what my intentions and motivations are. To those who have sent me personal messages on my yahoo e-mail, thanks for the support. My door is always open. Thanks.
Christian
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"I have come to see my dogs as a reflection of my willingness to try to improve, as well as an unsparing measure of my frequent failures in doing so."
? We did this scenario withour club members with similar results. The personal dogs did have fewer bites on the handler BUT it had nothing to do with the relationship/training. It had everything to do with the dogs being of a lesser temperment. They were hesitant to engage and that hesitation gave the handler time to direct the dog on the correct person. Is this good or bad? Depends on how you look at it.
To be clear, I am not saying that all personal dogs are weaker than police dogs, the opposite is oftern the case. THE CLUBS I TRAINED WITH were very open to everyone and most of the "personal dogs" were exactly that, pets that people brought out to "play" or learn with. The "sport competition" dogs performed this scenario as well all three "classes" of dogs all had similar results.
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"I have come to see my dogs as a reflection of my willingness to try to improve, as well as an unsparing measure of my frequent failures in doing so."
This is by far the most important thread that I have started. I am very upset with myself for how it has gone. I made three big mistakes here.
1) I brought forth a training issue that completley goes against conventional thought or wisdom. My experience told me that people do not beleive that this will happen. I did this on an open forum with no ability to demonstrate the probable outcome.
2) I attempted to explain the popular theory of those who are aware of this training issue. in doing so, I opened myself up to critisisim, which I usually welcome, but when attempting to argue a point that goes against what the majority believes, I created an impossible situation for myself.
3) I allowed my ego and emotion to override my better judgement. By doing so, I changed the focus of the discussion making it even harder to accomplish my goal.
My conviction to the importance of this thread is very strong. I have done a very poor job with it. Tomarrow, I will take a different approach. I have thought of a way for people to go to their trainers or training club and safely try it for themselves, if they wish. It will only take one more post then it can end or continue as others see fit.
Please stay with me,
Christian
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"I have come to see my dogs as a reflection of my willingness to try to improve, as well as an unsparing measure of my frequent failures in doing so."
Actually Christian, I really think you're way too hard on yourself and you need to stop 'beating yourself up' over this! lol? ?It's a very interesting thread and I DO believe that this (your points) CAN happen....however, those that I have seen personally; I could probably 'dissect' pretty thoroughly on their relationship and the training of their dogs.? I can only go by what I have observed myself!?
You know I am soooooooooooo curious as to your findings...In the spring after my recovery...I am going to take one of my bitches (since she's used to wearing a muzzle and also because she has a very strong bond/relationship with me) and I am going to set up a similar scenario just to see what will happen with me in a submissive position.? I am going to do this with my young male as well once his training progresses a bit more and he becomes very comfortable in an agitation muzzle.
I feel I have an excellent relationship with both dogs...however, the biggest difference is that my male spends more time in a kennel and my female is in the house 24/7 and sleeps in my room and many times on my bed lol? .? But then she's retired and very deserving of those 'luxuries'! ?
OR, maybe I'll wait until the trial season is over in case I have to spend more time in recovery! lol?
But honestly, I have a dog in Europe currently that is one HA SOB...who only works for himself and will get the job done and then some...IOW...he is a liability...he's just plain dangerous...He's independent and I swear this dog could survive on a deserted island!? He'll 'die' before he'll ever submit...that's just his genetic blueprint...And one day I was trying to explain to the decoy what I wanted and many times SHOWING is better than anything else...So I put the suit on to demonstrate what I wanted with THIS dog (I had him since he was 4 months old) and when that dog bit me...you could see the conflict and the look in his eyes that 'there was something wrong' with him biting ME...Needless to say, I never did this again.? I honestly never thought I would see that look in this dog's eyes as he lived to bite and his real aggression was extreme.? Yet he didn't bite ME in the same manner like he would bite anyone else.? He had sent several people to the hospital in the past...After a certain age...he only allowed me to handle him.? And he was a 'kennel dog' for obvious reasons.? Yet I was his handler and the conflict that he went through when he was told to bite me...was incredible.
This was a dog that would 'eat' someone without a moment's hesitation...Yet after not seeing me for about 2 years....He saw me show up in Europe one day and at a distance was ready to tear me apart...as soon as I spoke to him as I did when he was a pup and smelled my hand from his kennel...he started to shake and tremble as his memory came back...I guess our bond was stronger than I would have ever thought!? This dog never laid a tooth on me in his whole life...I wish I could say the same for others who came in contact with him...
I do think the relationship is the KEY. Again JMHO...and I am certainly not saying that what you've said is wrong in any way...
Brigita
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"Desire is the key to motivation, but it's the determination and commitment to an unrelenting pursuit of your goal - a commitment to excellence - that will enable you to attain the success you seek."
I really should have elaborated on the extreme and aggressive dog that I was speaking of...because I didn't want anyone to assume my 'message'...
What I was trying to say is that as independent, for 'himself', and as aggressive as this dog was...he was still in conflict when biting ME (I could feel him release his pressure on my upper arm through the suit while looking right into my eyes)--This dog NEVER eases up and he engages like he's going into battle--for him NOTHING was a game--he was out to destroy his opponent every time...He sensed there was something amiss when he was told to bite me, as I was his handler.? By the way...this dog had NO alpha.? This was a dog that I could have bet money on wouldn't CARE whom he bit when he was sent, or when under any type of 'stress'.? Once he targeted or focused on the object of his attention...it was 'game over'.?
I was wrong and I didn't give enough credit to my relationship with him.? He taught me a lot.
Do I think he would have bitten me (as his handler) in your scenario?? I think it would be unlikely...but with 'panic' and things happening so fast...if he did get an initial bite on ME...I also think he would have instantly let go and redirected his aggression as soon as he realized whom he had bitten...
Ironically, my SPORT bitch had NO problem biting me (in the suit) as biting was a GAME!? Go figure! lol?
Again an excellent discussion from all, and a big thanks to all who contributed!
B
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"Desire is the key to motivation, but it's the determination and commitment to an unrelenting pursuit of your goal - a commitment to excellence - that will enable you to attain the success you seek."
In my experience with this scenario the dog doesn't realize that he is biting his handler and when he does he immediately disengages.? The dog that continues to bite his handler when he knows who he is biting I would agree that there is a relationship problem there.? Unless I am mistaken the point of the discussion was what people think that their dog would do in such a situation, then pointing out what many times actually happens.? If you have a strong dog that comes in hard and confident even a brief bite may be quite serious.? Maybe the dog just doesn't think that the alpha dog could be losing a fight?? I don't know why this happens.? I did this during a traffic stop scenario.? The badguy attacks me, I hit my door opener, the dog comes out (he loses sight of me briefly when deploying from the car) I am on the ground and the decoy is standing over me and the dog goes after me at first.? Again I don't know why it happens it just does.
After having read all the various posts, I'm curious. Cali's only been in the muzzle a couple times now, but after one or two more sessions, we'll set this up and see what happens. I'll video tape it and then can post it. Cali is a full time house dog, sleeps on the bed at night, was raised in the French Ring program but has always had a civil side to her. So if the relationship is what is going to save me from getting punched, ours should.
Does anything think WHO the decoys are plays any part in this scenario? I would think that my chances of being punched (Cali will be muzzled) would be higher if Cali knows the decoys and sees them on a regular basis (ie they are kind of extended pack members) vs if the decoys are total strangers to her. If they are total strangers, I would expect more of an us vs them attitude to kick in, making it clearer who she's supposed to be going after. Then again, if the people are decoys she normally works with, that might also make things clearer to her who she's after, since she normally bites them in other scenarios.
Ok, lets look at this from a totally new perspective. Forget all about the concept or psycology of a dog biting their own handler. Let's take the handler completly out of it for a minute and talk about targeting.
I have witnessed a behavior that comes up in training. If there are two people fighting and a dog is sent on them, in my experience, the majority of dogs will target the person on the ground or who appears to be losing, or is in the weaker postition, in the fight. Here is an example scenario to test this theory.
Two decoys in full bite suits ( I don't know what would happen if done with IPO style sleeves but if that is all you have, go for it) 1 "bad guy" one "good guy." Handler and dog team approx. 5 yards(meters) away. The decoys are evenly aggressive in fighting. Handler alerts their dog, gives a warning, and sends their dog. When the handler sends their dog the "good guy" goes to the ground on his knees and one hand fighting the other decoy with his free hand. The "bad guy" is over the "good guy".? In my experience, the dog will target the person on the ground. It is important that the decoys are of a even distance(meaning the dog will not reach one before the other) and that there is no presentation to the dog from either decoy.
Do this scenario and quickly out the dog and heel away in the opposite position. Have the decoys stand up and begin fighting. While fighting they are moving in a circle. The handler gives a warning and and then sends the dog again. When the dog is comming, the other decoy, the "bad guy" goes to the ground. (again the decoys need to be positioned so that the dog does not reach either decoy first and neither decoy gives a presentation to the dog)
My experience is the dog will target the decoy on the ground.Ok, let's not talk about the "what if's", legalities, or weather or not we would send our dog. It doesn't matter, we are attempting to demonstrate a behavior.
Does anything think WHO the decoys are plays any part in this scenario?.
Valid point. In the above scenario I could see the dog targeting a "favorite" or familiar decoy. There are always infinate variables when setting up scenarios. You can only do the best with what you've got.
Try it. Whatever decoy the dog bites--No harm, no foul. Now read next post for scenario with the handler.
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"I have come to see my dogs as a reflection of my willingness to try to improve, as well as an unsparing measure of my frequent failures in doing so."
This scenario is completely different from the original; but one that I think is likely to produce similar results.
1 decoy 1 handler. Both in full body bite suits or plain clothes with no equipment and the dog in a muzzle. We need one more person to hold the dog with the dog on a leash and a harness or collar. We also need a blind, building, or wall for this scenario. The outside corner of a building would be ideal.
Ok, here we go. Our third person is going to be holding the handlers dog behind the blind, or wall. The "bad guy" and handler will begin fighting in view of the dog. Put on your best act really fight and scream for help. It is important that the dog is very pumped up.
Now "bad guy" grabs handler and pulls him/her around the wall, out of sight. The distance is important: keep it very close, about 10 feet(3.5 meters). The handler goes to the ground on their back. The "bad guy" is standing over him/her behind them in relation to the approaching dog. Now the helper releases the dog to defend their owner.
The timing, distance, and position of handler/bad guy is important. What we want is a pumped up dog ready to defend their owner. The dog comes out of the blind or around the corner and immediatly sees their owner on the ground and the bad guy standing over them but behind them in relation to the dog. It is important that this scenario is done quickly. Practice it without the dog a time or two so you get the distance and positions correct.
I know this is completly different than the original scenario but one that I think is likely to produce the results Jeff and I have experienced. Print this scenario and the ones above up and TAKE THEM TO YOUR TRAINER OR TRAINING CLUB Try them. If your results are different what did you lose? A half-hour of your time. If the results are similar to my experience; maybe you learned some valuable information.
Good luck,
Christian
**Malndobe---- Your willingness to attempt this is very encouraging. I have a difficult time thinking a dog breeder will post a video for the world to see of their dog biting them.? But if you say you are willing; I have no reason to think you would not. I ask one thing. Before doing this video, would you be willing to have a phone conversation so we can discuss the set up- distances, positions, timing, etc.? Send me a personal message and let me know.
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"I have come to see my dogs as a reflection of my willingness to try to improve, as well as an unsparing measure of my frequent failures in doing so."
Try them. If your results are different what did you lose? A half-hour of your time. If the results are similar to my experience; maybe you learned some valuable information.
This sentence is way too stupid !!
If result is different your result is useless and Pete Mitchell won't change his opinion and stick to his own 'truth'.
If result is dramatic and in worse case got out of control, you are member of the pigeon killer club.
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These exercises and many more are indeed targeting practices but one has to know how to handle, to control, to train a dog. People does need a good instructor around who understands and sees what will happen. I can tell you many more examples of targeting exercises I am very sure you don't even know about, which I use in my seminars for police K-9 with handlers and back up officers. When I write these down I won't feel good for some might turn out dramatic and some funny.
Always, when these targeting training are performed with excellent instructor nearby who knows what he does: nothing happens and dogs get to learn how to handle those situations. In my oppinion not very wise to ask in public to do something like that (it's just 30 minutes work and maybe hospital visit: like Jack Ass).
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I think it's time to have a talk with moderators and get legal back up advice and figure out if these "do this at home nonsense" can keep going. -------------------
You can train and set up as many scenarios as you like, it?s just IMPOSSIBLE to create a real situation. The dogs know VERY well that it is only training and that they are allowed to bite. To them it is a game and that?s why they can?t make a distinction between good and bad guys. Moreover there are many handlers who put on the sleeve themselves from time to time to let their own dogs bite (personally I NEVER do this with an adult dog) so the dog doesn?t even feel wrong when he bites his own handler (he is part of the game isn?t he ).
There is no REAL adrenalin sensation of fear or anger, so the dogs don?t take it seriously either.
Plus, you?d be surprised to see how many dogs react in a real situation, when they feel it is for real or when the aggressor actually hurts them?. There has to be a real dog at your side then.
?Never say never? of course but I?m pretty confident that a dog that takes his job seriously will know very well who to bite in case his handler is assaulted. He?ll go out of real aggression then, not just to play.
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.? But then she's retired and very deserving of those 'luxuries'! 
