Well one thing is for certain, no matter what type of training scenario you create you can never duplicte the real thing. I have watched or participated in this scenario or very similar ones to probably close to 100 dogs. The last time I participated in this scenario I kept track.
47 active Police Service Dogs did this exact scenario but with only one "bad guy". 39 of the dogs BIT THEIR OWN HANDLER!!!!!! Of the 8 dogs that did not bite there handler, 4 were previously trained for this scenario and 2 failed to engage at all!!!!!!
My comuter time is running out will explain more tomarrow. Feel free to comment.
Christian
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"I have come to see my dogs as a reflection of my willingness to try to improve, as well as an unsparing measure of my frequent failures in doing so."
My "answer" is not available as my dogs are always crated in the car for safety. I NEVER travel with dogs loose in the car.? I live 5 acres back from the "road" and I would be very suspicious of two unknown guys outside my house.? If I sensed these guys were a threat, the best? answer would be to go to a neighbors? house for help.? Unless it's a matter of life and death, the City Police in the town where I live outside of would not likely respond,? and I would have to wait 20 minutes to way longer for a Sheriff to come out.? But hey, if I or any other felony free citizen of this county wanted, I could easily get a "carry" permit. Since it's such a small boring town, people tend to talk and I think we are known as the weird dog people whose dog's are friendly, but WILL bite when told to.? One afternoon of training protection work in front of the house has kept the missionaries from ever "returning When my husband is gone I sleep ok. The dogs are "loose" in the house and sleep in the bedroom with us, along with some other "legal" weapons. I have done a few "civil" sleeve and civil suit bites w/ my mali, as well as seeing her have a very agressive attitude when we've sparred, so I think she might bite, especially if I were fighting off someone.? My rottie might join in, but if she were hit really hard, she would probably turn tail and hide in her crate When "strangers" come to our house, the dogs go to the door and bark.? I "down/stay" them away from the door, let the stranger in and then let the dogs meet them.? I have often wondered what would happen if someone "tried" something?? If you want to come to my house wearing a civil suit, we can try it.? BUT, since I agree with Brigita that the dog/s could get very hurt? ? , I'd want to be able to say "uncle!" at any point? -we always enjoy company
To explain my earlier answer more,? if any of the decoys are wearing a bitesuit then it makes it easier for the dog to bite the right person.? Even though the muzzle is a cue to the dog, both decoy and handler will look more the same to the dog.? I wouldn't want to try it with a decoy with a hidden sleeve and the dog? without a muzzle until I was sure my dog wouldn't bite me.? If any of you are thinking of trying this PLEASE take the necessary precautions.? Your own dog may bite the crap out of you before he realizes that it is you.? I have seen it happen.? ?My observations have been the same as Christian's.? In both training seminars that I attended that did this exercise, eighty to ninety percent of the dogs bit their own handlers and the ones that didn't really weren't prepared to protect their handlers anyway.
Surprising info I must say. Funny how we always belive what will happen and how our dogs will react.
The truth is we don?t know what will happen till the day we get into such a nasty situation. You guys think this is mistaken identity when dog grabs its own handler or it is just "I go fight who ever moves more" kind of thing?
Hm, would the same happen with our "home" dogs?
If I would be police officer with k9 I would be little worried because of above info. Training this situations would be my priority.
Good thread guys.
Bye, Raven
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Do not condemn the judgment of another because it differs from your own. You may both be wrong. ~Dandemis
Again I have to be quick. My sister's computer broke so now I can't even borrow hers.
Thanks for the interest in this thread. There is a method to my madness. Officer Jeff jumped the gun on me a bit but I think he was concerned about someone trying this scenario and getting hurt. I did think about that and posted this during the holidays figuring people would be busy with other things. So Please do not attempt this without the dog being muzzled or all participants in full bite suits!
Has ayone ever seen a dog fight that involved more than 2 dogs? What about any documentary or info reports on wolves in the wild? How about anyone that has had several dogs and one became very old? How did the older dogs act towards the older/sick dog?
It is easy to tell someone or show someone what will probably happen. The question is why does it happen. Going to keep you guys thinking at least one more day. Would love to hear people's opinions on why they think it? this happens.
Sharon-- Real nice place!! Anyone care to make a guess?
Christian
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"I have come to see my dogs as a reflection of my willingness to try to improve, as well as an unsparing measure of my frequent failures in doing so."
Xargo never challanged Randor (who was 6 years older than the young dogs), he never even considered this.
Yentos on the other hand started to challange him from the day he came to live with us and he kept doing this until the end but their conflicts only ended in actual fights maybe 3 times all the other times it got resolved by body language.
Randor remained in firm control until the day he died. The problems only started a few months later when the younger dogs started fighting over dominance since the leader of the pack was no longer present (and they didn't like one another while he was alive either).
Saskia
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He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
Well I guess it is time to give my answer and see what happens
Nature is not nice. Only the strong survive. Dogs are pack animals. For the survival of the pack the "weak link" must be eliminated. If there is only so much food for a pack of animals what happens? The weak ones either don't get to eat or are driven from the pack. In the wild when pack animals get old or sick and can no longer contribute to the pack the are attacked and forced from the pack to die alone. Nature is not nice and humans often have a hard time accepting that fact.
How does this apply to my made up scenario and why the police dogs bit their handlers?
In times of stress, you resort to your training and your survival instincts. Dogs have natural survival "drive" or instinct to attack and drive out the "weakest link". That combined with the conditioned response of training is why they bite there handler. The dog's conditioned? response to training is to respond and engage in the fight. The dogs instinctual pack drive,? compels them to attack the "weakest link" which is the person on the bottom. You.
I think Saskia saw where i was going with this. In any example of a "home environment" the human, hopefully, is the alpha dog and establishes the pack rank or order. I doubt very seriously any of us would allow our younger dogs to attack our older ones. If left alone to work it out the younger dogs will always challenge and drive out the older ones but humans interfere with nature. Is this a bad thing for a home environment? Of course not. But make no mistake that we as humans often interfere and change what nature intended.
Well there is my answer and take it for what you will. I have seen over 100 dogs do this scenario with the same results. If you have a dog that you rely upon and is trained in handler protection I encourage you to try this scenario but please protect all participants.
Christian
PS. Yes Raven if our "home dogs" are trained in handler protection and are of a strong temperment the results will probably be the same.
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"I have come to see my dogs as a reflection of my willingness to try to improve, as well as an unsparing measure of my frequent failures in doing so."
Christian...great discussion!? I can't say I disagree w/what you've stated...but I also think there are so many variables to consider in this that there really is 'no right or wrong' answer...There's various angles one could look at this and arrive at different conclusions...
Yes Nature 'culls' the 'weak' or when there isn't enough food...then the 'strong survive'.? Completely agree...however, it also has a tendency to 'cull' the 'threats or potentially strong' as well...An 'upcoming' virile young male wolf becomes a threat to the alpha male...and he is quickly dealt with...if not killed...then he is banished from the pack to live out a life of a 'bachelor' without a pack...An upcoming female becomes a threat to the alpha female...and is many times killed (this as well ensures she doesn't go on to breed)...So it's not necessarily just the 'weak' who get 'culled'...It's also the 'strong' or those posing as a threat...
This can be applied to the scenario...a dominant protection dog can quite likely go after the AGRESSOR as the latter poses more a threat than the 'static' opponent.? The dog's focus isn't necessarily always on the 'weak'...many times it can be directed in the direction of where the greatest threat is...In this case...the perp who is punching, pummeling, and inflicting 'active' damage to his handler...
I think we have to look at the highly complex dynamics of a 'pack'...IOW, 'teamwork'...I think we have to consider that there are various types of stress...In your examples of hunger, or aging...these are 'stress'...But so are examples of strong opponents challenging existing ones for a higher standing in the pack hierarchy...As well another form/example of stress is when they hunt and corner a potentially very aggressive and dominant prey such as a moose or musk oxen...I have yet to see a wolf from a hunting pack; turn on another pack member (even if the other member is injured--they maintain their focus on the prey), as this would be 'suicidal' to the pack's longterm survival...They work as a team to bring their prey down (IOW 'assist' each other)...Another reason why one doesn't see or hear of many fights within a wolf pack...Their strength/power is in numbers/teamwork...to harm one of their own would only undermine their whole reason for being....Nature ensured their survival...And 'fighting' is something that is RARELY done in a wolf pack...and only when there is no other alternative.
So outside of sheer 'timing accidents' when training...if a dog bites his handler with intent...Then my own thinking would be that it's a training/relationship issue more than anything else and less likely to attribute this to 'instinct'.? Because the latter, lacks logic w/respect to 'nature' and 'pack' survival.
Also another thought...without a 'leader' in a pack...the pack 'dies'...So given this; even more reason or natural instinct NOT to 'hurt' the owner/leader...A dog (like a wolf) is very aware that his existence depends on the owner/person being mugged/hurt...It just doesn't make sense that the dog would basically 'turn on' his 'leader' in this type of scenario....Even nature ensured this wouldn't happen.
Again, just another perspective...
--Really enjoyed reading the threads!? Keep 'em coming!
B
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"Desire is the key to motivation, but it's the determination and commitment to an unrelenting pursuit of your goal - a commitment to excellence - that will enable you to attain the success you seek."
I think we have to look at the highly complex dynamics of a 'pack'...IOW, 'teamwork'...I think we have to consider that there are various types of stress...
Thanks B (Ultramal) for your addition. I am happy to read someone does see the higher (read more complex) abstract dynamics.
Silly thread I think this but still very funny. For some reason this thread does read and follow the rules of "JackAss" of Steve O. Wherin stating the nature does follow their law but at the same time tells: don't try this at home for we can't predict the outcome and everything is done by professionals.
((Raven: Blueberry never will bite handler in whatever situation, nor will Victor, nor Kayos.))
Ultramal you got me thinking and I must say I agree.
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((Raven: Blueberry never will bite handler in whatever situation, nor will Victor, nor Kayos.))
That I know.. hehe, been doing all kinds of stuff with him somehow he just doesen't want to..lol Kidding to side he is definitly very protective of hunden (like he should be), when I hit hunden on arm (play thing) he imidiatly shows me he is not too fond of that. Grabs my leg with his front paws or starts to bark at me. I am certain he would rip anyone who would go for hunden to pieces.
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Hm, would the same happen with our "home" dogs?
I wrote this exactly because of thinking that our home dogs are with us 24/7 and are probably more part of the family than police dog - police officer. I dont know if we can compare police dog - our dogs.
Bye, Raven
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Do not condemn the judgment of another because it differs from your own. You may both be wrong. ~Dandemis
I dont know if we can compare police dog - our dogs.
I do have the same feeling. Currently our pack consists currently of 2 members. Myself as alfa dog and Yentos. When I am not at work, he is with me. If he eliminates me, he will not survive. He won't have a home, he will not have food, etc.
Survival of the strongest is indeed common inside the pack. But the pack comes first and when a pack member is under attack the remaining dogs will defend the pack. When a pack is taken over by an outside dog, life within a pack turns upside down, yound pups are killed to bring bitches into heat, etc.
Even with the pack I described in an earlier post, where 2 pack member are seperated for life because they will kill each other (and now even more than before), Xargo will always come to Yentos' aid although this would be the ideal moment to get rid of him.
So indeed can we compare police dogs to our "home" dogs?
Saskia
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He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
And that is what I was trying to say Saskia...The 'pack' system/relationship is not the same in MOST PSD as it is with OUR dogs.? If a pack member attacks one of its own (instead of assists)...then something is terribly wrong either in the training and/or relationship level.? To attack one of your own in the presence of outside/external (meaning coming from outside the pack) stress/danger is contradictory to nature and the survival of the species.
I have NEVER had a personal dog that would bite me in a civil situation because I was the 'weaker link' in a given scenario, and I have been training dogs for many years...The 'pack' relationship we have is that of myself being alpha and the dogs knowing that their survival depends on ME.? And they will do what is needed to maintain that pack 'integrity'.
Excellent posts guys!
B
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"Desire is the key to motivation, but it's the determination and commitment to an unrelenting pursuit of your goal - a commitment to excellence - that will enable you to attain the success you seek."
I wrote this exactly because of thinking that our home dogs are with us 24/7 and are probably more part of the family than police dog - police officer. I dont know if we can compare police dog - our dogs.
Not all police officers are what people tend to think.
The best handlers with the best dogs have their dog around 24/7 and does care of their dog first then the girls. ?In this case policedogs I have stationed at selected officers perform outstanding due to training but in basics easy can be compared with Blueberry. I do bet Blueberry and Victor are equally taken care of and loved: personal protection dog and dual trained police dog.
The ones who think old fashioned and keep dogs locked away in kennel and only use them as tool created a different type of dog. In that case comparision is unthinkable.
Also people have to realize different trainingsmethod and knowledge of training does have a stronge influence on the dog's behavior.
My pet dog & hearing dog Falco, never will act like Eppo or Blueberry (dogs Raven knows). I am even proud to say I know 100% Falco never will protect me by an attack nor even would bite me, however he does have all the courage to do so.
however, it also has a tendency to 'cull' the 'threats or potentially strong' as well...An 'upcoming' virile young male wolf becomes a threat to the alpha male...and he is quickly dealt with...if not killed...)...So it's not necessarily just the 'weak' who get 'culled'...It's also the 'strong' or those posing as a threat...
I was thinking this exact thought as I see my spites increase.
Brigita you are aboslutly correct in what you are saying and I agree 100% You talk about a dog that bites it's owner with intent. The psycology I explain is not the dog saying "I am going to kill me partner because he is the weakest link" ?Dogs don't ?think like humans. This was why I was trying to push the fact that it is dark--Your dog cannot see you. But I have seen this done in the daylight with handler and and decoy in bitesuits with the same result.
Silly thread I think this but still very funny. For some reason this thread does read and follow the rules of "JackAss" of Steve O. Wherin stating the nature does follow their law but at the same time tells: don't try this at home for we can't predict the outcome and everything is done by professionals.
((Raven: Blueberry never will bite handler in whatever situation, nor will Victor, nor Kayos.))
Teus
I don't think the safety of police officers and citizens who rely on there dogs for protection is silly nor funny. I take it very seriously. To suggest a dog will never bite their own handler is VERY irrisponsible of a dog trainer. I am not saying to not try this at home. The reason I posted this was in the hopes that people would try this. It would be irresponsible of me to post info like this ans not advise for the safety of others. Try this please. All I ask is that you set up the scenario exactly as I explained and protect yourselves.
I started this thread for several reasons. 1) this is a scenario that I have seen over 100 times with almost the exact same result. If I can get one police officer or citizen to recongnize this and take measures do it does not happen in real life when you really need your dog then I helped someone.
2) In the United States Protection sports and Personal protection dogs is getting real big. I see dogs sold as "personal protection" dogs and police dogs that would run from their own shadow. People are making huge amounts of money and creating not only a false sense of security but a personal safety hazzard. Not ok so If i can educate someone I will always do so. There is a big wide world outside of this forum. If someone take offense to this so be it.
3) I was hoping that we could take this in a direction to recognize our streangths and limitations of various training dicsplines.
These discussion boards have the power to educate. Unfortunatly they seem to be used for other less positive uses. I cannot force anyone to believe me nor do I wish to. Take the info as you will. I have no dog training business, I have no breeding kennel, I have no motivation to discredit anyone. My only hope is to educate and keep people safe.
Christian
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"I have come to see my dogs as a reflection of my willingness to try to improve, as well as an unsparing measure of my frequent failures in doing so."
While everyone was busy bashing my theory and defending there position nobody attempted to address the issue of the dogs biting their own handlers in this scenario. I ask. If I am wrong than why did all of these police dogs bite their own handlers? Why am I consistantly seeing the same results to this scenario? I am guessing I have witnessed this 100 times.
Are we saying that the 39 officers that would have gotten bit by there own dogs did not love their dogs and have a good relationship with them? What about the personal dogs in our training club? In many ways police officers are behind civilian trainers in knowlege and training techniques but in some areas they far surpass. I can tell you that I loved my dog and she loved me. We had a wonderful working relationship and consistantly earned obedience scores in the 90's. When we did this scenario, it was in broad daylight with one suspect on top of me and she hit me so hard I thought she broke one of my ribs. Why?
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"I have come to see my dogs as a reflection of my willingness to try to improve, as well as an unsparing measure of my frequent failures in doing so."
Poll
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weapons. 
? , I'd want to be able to say "uncle!" at any point? 
