I'll use the stop for this discussion, but really it applies to almost all parts of the BSD.? Just what is "moderate".? In a lot of the photos posted in the other thread there are comments about various dogs "stop".? When I look at some of these dogs, although I may agree it's "moderate" it is IMO pushing the line between moderate and extreme (lacking).? And I think the dogs could use just a little bit more of a stop to really fall solidly in the "moderate" category.? So exactly what is "moderate" and how do we define it?? Is it moderate in comparison to other breeds?? Compared to a Rottweiler or Boxer my sister's BSD has a moderate stop.? But compared to the average BSD it's extreme.? ?This dog isn't related to him, but he has a lot more stop than she does.? And she's pushing the "to much" end of things IMO.
I completely AGREE with you Kadi!? Many of the pics I wouldn't classify as 'moderate' at all...and some having negligible 'stops'.? Because everyone has their own 'ideal' or interpretation..Then the word 'standard' becomes an oxymoron--IOW there is no 'standard'--on paper yes, in practice no.? We have difficulty aggreeing on a small scale like this forum...How on earth are we (show and work people) going to agree on a global scale?
Logged
"Desire is the key to motivation, but it's the determination and commitment to an unrelenting pursuit of your goal - a commitment to excellence - that will enable you to attain the success you seek."
‘Kohtuullinen’ otsapenger tarkoittaa, ett? sen tulee olla v?hemm?n korostunut kuin ‘keskinkertainen’. ‘Kohtuullinen’ otsapenger soveltuu belgianpaimenkoiran meislattuun p??h?n sopusuhtaisemmin kuin ‘keskinkertainen’. Vertailun vuoksi, hollanninpaimenkoiralla on 'v?h?n otsapengert?' ja saksanpaimenkoiran otsapenger on korostunut."
This is in finnish and I try to translate, because i didn't found he same in english: Stop: moderate: 'Moderate' stop means that it should be less pronounced than 'average'. 'Moderate' fits better in chiseled head of BSD than 'average'. For comparison, DS has 'some stop' and GSD's stop is pronounced.
That tells to me pretty clearly, that stop is there and can be seen as a part of head, but not like GSD's, and also it should be chiseled so that it joints smoothly cranial area and muzzle, but not so that is is too long and makes head lines round. I, as well as several judges, go back to Nepo's head. Of course it is not nowadays showtype, but it fills the requierements of standard, also, when measured with tools (as it was!)
And like we see in here in this discussion, we all see our "own" type and own dogs - or best pals dogs - to be the best. And because breeders don't see the difference in their point of wiew and standard, type will change forever.
Should it?
J
J
Logged
Coffee and love are something you just can't warm up again.
>>'Moderate' stop means that it should be less pronounced than 'average'.
***Jenni...I'm still not understanding your/his definition of 'moderate'...Logically, this term denotes:? average, in the middle, between two extremes (not too much/not too little)...And what is an 'average' stop...average what...GSD, Boxer, Doberman, Golden?? What I'm saying is that all these breeds have different 'stops'...and all of them could be MODERATE or AVERAGE for their particular breed....But their 'average' is certainly not a BSD's 'average'....
***By you using the two breeds GSD and DS...are these the breeds that are your/his comparison models which define what a 'moderate stop' should be in a Belgian?? And if they are the two breeds to be used as comparison models...Then are you saying that a Belgian should have a greater stop than a DS; but not as much as a GSD?? Just trying to understand.? I think it's just a communication issue...and I don't wish to assume anything...So if you could clarify this, then it may help me to understand from which perspective you are viewing this.? Thanks in advance!
Logged
"Desire is the key to motivation, but it's the determination and commitment to an unrelenting pursuit of your goal - a commitment to excellence - that will enable you to attain the success you seek."
Then it's not 'moderate'. ?The picture of the DS posted is what I consider to be moderate and marked...and in essence the head type is very similar to that of a Malinois...And if we were to 'suppose' that this scale (GSD>>DS>>BSD) was the 'ideal'; then the BSD head would resemble a collie head more than a GSD...I don't think so...Definitely a conflict to workability.
I'm not really sure if the use of a DS as a model is functional...Is there such a thing as a truly pure DS? ?Throughout history the Belgians and the DS were considered related on some level...There is too much overlap genetically between the DS and the BSD for the DS to be used as a 'model' for comparison where one is in the middle and the other at the end of a 'scale'.
In the 1900's the DS and Belgians were admitted into the same ring on numerous occasions....and after the war (only some 60 years ago)...The Malinois was used/infused again into the DS genepool (for the short coated variety), and the Terv for the long coated variety...So there is no way one could use the DS as a model of comparison as there is so much Belgian blood in the DS...There is even a genetic correlation between the DS and the Laekenois AND Bouvier...Because of the genetic contribution between the breeds/varieties...It's very questionable even the existence of a 'stop standard'. ?It lacks logic. ?In fact to be realistic here; considering genetic/historical facts...a 'stop' could be anything short of the 'extreme' (too much) and still be acceptable and within the standard. ?No?? ?In fact the standard states not only 'moderate' BUT 'marked'.? Yet the UKC calls for a 'slight stop' in the DS and the Americans have their own standard once again for the DS...Even the kennel clubs cannot agree on any one standard...So how can there be a standard?? How can one use any model for comparison?? I think when one researches and reads the various standards on the same breed...They will logically come to a conclusion that there really is no standard...nothing is 'set in stone' and it's all about subjective interpretation.
But we have to be honest with ourselves...There are more show BSD's with less than moderate and marked stops winning Ch. than those who are truly built to any standard written on paper...That is why I said that we have one standard on paper but not in practice...
And then people are surprised that there is such a 'rift' between working and show people...There is more discrepencies between the various show kennel clubs and their standards than there is between the working people...At least working people can honestly say...either a dog can work and has the drives and ability or he/she can't.? With work....there are much fewer 'gray areas'...
Again, I have enjoyed this entire discussion and it answered some questions I had as well, and confirmed others...Thank you!
Brigita
Logged
"Desire is the key to motivation, but it's the determination and commitment to an unrelenting pursuit of your goal - a commitment to excellence - that will enable you to attain the success you seek."
Author
Logged
