Thank you so much Martine...you helped explain and clarify a few things for ME!
Brigita
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"Desire is the key to motivation, but it's the determination and commitment to an unrelenting pursuit of your goal - a commitment to excellence - that will enable you to attain the success you seek."
>>Brigita, >>thanks for clearing things up for me. FR technique makes much more sense to me now.
You're very welcome Ivan!? I think it's vital to understand the philosophy behind a given program, and how it's marked and what they're looking for...Then the training of the exercises, type of dogs, etc... makes much more sense!
They're all difficult programs...they just emphasize different things...
Brigita
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"Desire is the key to motivation, but it's the determination and commitment to an unrelenting pursuit of your goal - a commitment to excellence - that will enable you to attain the success you seek."
Ladies you are a fountain of knowlege. Now that I understand the excersises better;I can better form an opinion on training techniques. I did not know there was two article guards in BR. It seems like one is very similar to the FR excercise.
The short training tapeon the young KNPV dog-the dog was standing on a box and the handler was giving short pops on the pinch collar. It seemed to me that they were teaching this similar to an IPO bark and hold in that the pops were to help the rythm of the barks and building a little frustration or anger. The goal being the more aggressive "fight drive" or "angry" bark and hold. It seemedthat they were teaching the dog that his barking would bring the bite but wanted some aggression to it. This is just what I took from the short footage I saw so I could be totally wrong but that is what I got from it and found it a pretty interesting technique. Don't see it working for the FR/BR program but I am expecting to see a article guard pop up in PSA someday and am trying to be ahea of the game.
So I don't want this to turn or be percieved as a "this sport is better than that sport" Just trying to better myself by learning and getting ideas from the different dicplines. So now I will think of another question for tomorrow.
Thanks,
Christian
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"I have come to see my dogs as a reflection of my willingness to try to improve, as well as an unsparing measure of my frequent failures in doing so."
>>The short training tapeon the young KNPV dog-the dog was standing on a box and the handler was giving short pops on the pinch collar. It seemed to me that they were teaching this similar to an IPO bark and hold in that the pops were to help the rythm of the barks and building a little frustration or anger. The goal being the more aggressive "fight drive" or "angry" bark and hold. It seemedthat they were teaching the dog that his barking would bring the bite but wanted some aggression to it.
***The 'box in the woods' exercise? is not really an 'article guard' in the same manner as one would think...The box is hidden in the woods...The dog has a certain amount of time to find it...and then INDICATE that he has found it...analogy to a PSD finding evidence...Handler is out of sight; and after a certain amount of time the handler goes to pick up his dog...There is no bite on this exercise (if my old memory serves me correctly lol)...It's more of an indication exercise IMO than the classical article guard...It's an 'aggressive alert'.? Although training this exercise with a pup or young dog...The decoy plays a part in it to provoke the 'aggressive alert'...
***Below are pics of my dog Tyr (Yakk van Joefarm), doing the classic 'article guard':
And here is a pic of a pup I had a few years ago, training the 'box exercise' at 3-4 mos with the use of a decoy (not in the pic):
I do hope that makes it a bit clearer!
Take care!
B
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"Desire is the key to motivation, but it's the determination and commitment to an unrelenting pursuit of your goal - a commitment to excellence - that will enable you to attain the success you seek."
Kadi, Did you see the PSA article guard? If so would you please briefly explain how it was done.
Brigita-- Thank you for explaining I was seeing a different excercise. It still fits with the idea I am forming though.
So it seem like everyone shares the same idea in that the first phase of training, you teach more of a "place" command. You teach the dog that the article/or on the article is the place to be. Then you you add the decoy. Do we agree on that part?
Next question- As you introduce the decoy-- how do you teach the dog when to leave the basket for a bite at the measured distance?
Thanks again for everyone's participation,
Christian
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"I have come to see my dogs as a reflection of my willingness to try to improve, as well as an unsparing measure of my frequent failures in doing so."
I have the basket in the two meter ring and move around with a tug. When I approach the two meter line I give the command to bite, play for a couple of seconds and then stop moving and say "object". when the dog goes back, I give a food reward and continue. When the dog can stay on the object while I am squirreling around, and goes out, and back I go to the jambierre or arm sleeve, depending on where the dog bites. Eventually we get to the suit, and fade the commands out. This method has worked well with a couple of dogs I tried it on. One of the problems I have found is the dog must keep his front feet in the basket. If the back feet are in, the distance is shortened and the dog goes early. (oooops)
I havn't done much in the way of training Object Guard, but I have decoyed it a "little" in MR.
In Mondio, it is (as far as I can tell) a very smooth mixture of FR and BR...
We (the decoys) are allowed the same "mental games" as a FR decoy, but we also have the abililty to use enironmental "props" as the BR decoys.
In all the BR guard exercises I have seen (not in person... over the web), it seems like the decoys typically come, more or less, straight in. The speed and level of intensity varies.. but the directional approach seems to be straight. Is this correct Martine?
A typical MR Object Guard would have 3 attempts with 2 using props, and one w/o. Although this varies from judge to judge... Which varies allot depending on their nationality!
Funny story was related to me from the Mondio Worlds a few years ago: The French decoys noticed that most Mondio dogs would not bite hands... so they could use their bare hands to really make the dogs avoid bitting... The Belgians saw this, and went home and began using fake arms and hands, teaching the dogs to bite hands! Next year, there were a few decoys with bandages!
I have worked too many PSA-type dogs to have that kind of comfort with the Object thus far!
The speed and level of intensity varies.. but the directional approach seems to be straight. Is this correct Martine?
Not completely. Directional approach doesn't have to be straight but as soon as the decoy is in the inner circle (this means at about 1m from the dog) he has to go straight.
Did you see the PSA article guard? If so would you please briefly explain how it was done.
I wasn't at that trial, but heard about it via the grapevine and internet. I believe it was posted about on the PSA BB, although that's been "cleared" since then so the old posts are gone. I know the PSA clubs in this area have been training for it for awhile, because I've talked to handlers who were looking for tips. Steve Garvin and Roadie trialed at that trial, he could give more insight into how they set the scenario up.
OK so here is a question I have for the object guard. I have taught the dog to stay with the object, and to bite at the 1.5 meter mark. I guess the official term is proximity training. I would like to see a bit more possesiveness with the object itself. I may have screwed myself, my dog will guard a ciggarette pack....well not really the pack, but the spot it is on. How can I improve this so he understands he is supposed to be guarding the object, and not " just" waiting for the decoy to cross the magical line. This is the one thing that I see as a weakness in the dog. In Mondio, they have so many weird things to guard I feel this would be of importance. I don't want the guy escorting my dog off the object. (his favorite exercise by the way) and I think that if I can make the object a little more important I will be better off. Thanks
why not try using "booty guarding" like in SchH to increase the dog's possesiveness?
hold the dog, just behind the object and have the decoy get up on it, and make movements toward the object... only retreating when the dog shows a desire to bite....
I know you did alot of SchH before, surely you did this over the sleeves, right?
I have no idea if this is a good idea, big picture, but I am pretty sure it will increase possessiveness!
I had thought about it, but the dog in question will put his mouth on the basket when frustrated or whatever we are using. Didn't want to promote that habit.
what I was "thinking" of, was to have the dog about a foot behind the object (basket, etc), so that the decoy can grab at it, w/o being bitten... when the dog is "ramped up", then have the decoy step into the bite area.
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