I think this could be an informative and interesting topic. I have never really "trained" an article guard. I have been used as a "new" decoy to test already trained ring dogs and attempt to get the basket but have never actually trained for it.
I would love to hear the different traninng techniques used in Belgian Ring, French ring, and KNPV. Is there an article guard in Mondio?
If we all get on board I think this could make for a great discussion. There is a ton of experience and knowlege on this board. I would love to learn something about how the different disciplines train the same basic excercise. Martine, Brigita, Kadi, Teus, and anyone else with knowlege to share.......
First question----At what age do you start training for this excersise and how do you introduce it?
Christian
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"I have come to see my dogs as a reflection of my willingness to try to improve, as well as an unsparing measure of my frequent failures in doing so."
I trained for it without any real guidance and had a fair amount of success with this method peiced together from board conversations.
I began feeding my dog on a box and required her to mount the box before I placed the food, all the while giving the command "guard". The command solidified after a couple of weeks, then began using other objects in different environments with varying the reward, all the while continuing to feed her at home in this manner. After she completly understood the command I began to tease her with a tug with release at the one mtr mark. Then we progressed to the practice field with a decoy.
I have never competed in a sport that required this training. I can say it works to a degree but I think it is flawed in that my dog was not truly showing possession over the object but just a willingness to remain on it until she knew she was allowed to release.
I like to put food in the basket and then bring the puppy to the basket. when he sticks his nose in I click, and reward. Then I shape the behavior until he is putting his front feet in the basket.
At this point I start teaching the dog to turn with me. I click when the back foot moves and reward. When I can go both directions, I add some distance.
When I have distance, I start a new object. Try lots of stuff and help the dog through the difficult parts.
>>First question----At what age do you start training for this excersise and how do you introduce it?
Hi Christian...
I start at 6 weeks...imprinting the desired behavior for the guard of an object...I will use food...But I hold the food...I do NOT put anything in the basket.
I take a pup over to a miniature basket (without handle) and use the food to position or get him to jump into the object with his front feet...at the same time I will imprint the command 'place feet/object-guard' (except it's in French)....As soon as the pup's feet hit the inside of that basket...he gets his treat....and we'll do this for a couple weeks until it's solid...All this time I am right beside that puppy...we do this together....After that, the pup is with me waiting eagerly for what I want him to do and for that treat...And I will stand 2-3 ft away from the basket and command 'place feet or object-guard'....Now the pup has to actually LEAVE me to go to his basket...As soon as BOTH feet hit that basket...I'm right behind the pup and he gets a reward...Again we do this for maybe a week or two (this exercise is done every day)--Once he does 3-4 repetitions correctly...I still stop and go do something else...After this, I work on increasing the distance the pup has to leave me to place his paws into the basket...To the point that I can throw the basket 20-25 ft from me, command 'feet in or object' and the pup will take off at full speed to place his front paws inside it...
I break up this exercise into tiny components and I don't advance until each one is PERFECT. But again we're talking very young puppies...So I keep it short and only ask for 3 (MAYBE 4) correct repetitions and then go on to something else...But this is done every day...and no more than 3+ minutes is spent on ANY exercise at this age....Everything is positive and I prefer to use food as opposed to a toy...as any dog's drives are better controlled/capped with food than toys....and you can maintain their FOCUS.
You touched upon my FAVORITE exercise...I simply love training this one! I WISH FR had just an 'Object Guard' title like KNPV does!
Take Care,
Brigita
PS--Been away today...will give you a call tomorrow evening...
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"Desire is the key to motivation, but it's the determination and commitment to an unrelenting pursuit of your goal - a commitment to excellence - that will enable you to attain the success you seek."
I should have added that sometimes, if handy...I'll use a small cardboard box and not necessarily a miniature basket...
When dealing with pups...I find it's really vital that the pup doesn't find the object uncomfortable...and since they're so 'unbalanced' at that age...They will hit it and fall etc...So you don't want to use any object that may turn them 'off' or generate inhibition...As their drives evolve...and they are a bit older...It will make NO difference to them what object you use....Also for pups; once I begin with one object,? I will use the SAME object every time...It's important to keep the consistency when learning anything new.? If a dog truly understands this exercise (depending on your training)...It won't make the slightest difference when you exchange it for something else ie., jacket, briefcase, wheel barrow, bike, etc....
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"Desire is the key to motivation, but it's the determination and commitment to an unrelenting pursuit of your goal - a commitment to excellence - that will enable you to attain the success you seek."
I start this just like Brigita, she did a great jog of outlining it step by step.
I like to use a basket, cardboard box, and a horse feed pan. One of those black rubber ones. I'll used the same item until the basic concept is solid, then introduce the other ones. I agree with B though, I haven't had a problem transitioning my dogs to other things later on, they just seem to "get it" that the new object is what they are to guard.
Once the pup understands going to the basket solidly, then I teach them to turn with their feet in the basket. This is just done with simple body/space pressure. I tell them "object" and once their feet are in the basket I stand next to them and move into them with my body. If needed I hold a piece of food in my hand to lure them and help them keep their front feet in the basket. My dogs are taught to move off my body pressure (I step into them to teach them to stand, step into them to teach them to walk backwards, etc) so when I step into them they will swing their body away, and start to turn around the basket with their rear, while keeping their front feet in place. Once they are solid turning both directions, and solid on going to the basket on command, then I introduce the decoy.
Training methods are different everywhere but this doesn't matter. Achievements are what count, no matter the method.
F.i. We don't prepare this exercise at all with our pups.
IMO the gift to really "guard" is genetic and can't be taught. However you can teach a dog, that doesn't have it 100% genetically, some techniques so that he does a decent object guard.
The only thing I teach a dog to prepare this exercise is to lie down on an object on command.
When the young dog knows the initial bitework on the leg sleeve and outs on command, we start with the object guard.
We make him lie down on the object and stand next to him. The decoy approaches slowly and at about 2 meters from the dog he makes a clear step forward (we call this "a telephone to the dog") so the dog jumps up and bites. The dog is allowed to bite for about 2 sec and then the decoy makes a very clear backwards movement. At the same time the handler commands "on the object" and makes the dog lie down on the object again.
The degree of difficulty in increased slowly (biting through objects, etc..) and the helper's "telephone" + the handler's commands are decreased progressively (dog has to out without command). For this exercise it is VERY important to have an experienced decoy who reads the dog and helps where necessary.
Thank you very much ladies!! Jeff thank you for your imput. Good post with good idea.
IMO, training techniques are always different between the sports because the rules, objective, and judging are going to be different. Any KNPV people out there? I would like to hear from you guys as well.
Christian
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"I have come to see my dogs as a reflection of my willingness to try to improve, as well as an unsparing measure of my frequent failures in doing so."
Correct me someone, but from all this methods i see object as position marker, not 'object to be guarded'. Especially with fr approach. But than i am shure it is proven method and points speak for themself.
What we have been doing is: with pups, while playing and letting them win ruq/tug/sleeve try to steal rug or tug and let them bite, than move away. Even slipped jacket and offered leg bite on what workingmalinois calls 'telephoning' while in suit. This is good not only for guard promotion but for teaching pup to keep eye on decoy and not go off playing with won pray item. Problems that i saw with this approach is that dogs like to bite and destroy object.
I do like that you do not start this excercise until dog know how to out - problem also would be when dog starts to enjoy bitting decoy more than his object and moving away while on bite only puts him up.
Also we don't do bites through objects or fr style 'mind games' (only with pups ) so it is easier on dog: first pass than straight for object. Just let go off bite in time and you are golden. Angry bark helps also
It's a balancing act for FR. I like to start by teaching my dogs the "position marker" concept. At the same time we are playing other games to make the dog posessive over an object. Well, depending on the dog. Many of my dogs are naturally very posessive and I do things to lessen this, so they will be willing to bring me their retrieve items and give them up later on. I like an element of posessiveness to my dogs, but not to the point I have to do a forced retrieve because once they have something, they will not bring it anywhere near me because they don't want to loose it.
In FR the dog will loose major points, or all their points, for damage to the object. When I have made a dog to posessive of the object, they have ultimately ended up redirecting some of their frustration into the object, chewing on it or otherwise damaging it. So this "blending" of position and attitude for me doesn't come until much later in the game, when the dog understands the basic concept. And generally, it just comes naturally as the dog matures, it's not something I really have to encourage to much.
>>Correct me someone, but from all this methods i see object as position marker, not 'object to be guarded'.
***Absolutely...at this stage (puppies) defense training doesn't exist.? The 'guarding' is something that is taught at the same time in other exercises and much later easily carried over into the guard of object exercise.
***This? is the most difficult exercise in FR due to the 'mind games' the decoy plays with the dog...EVERY component of this exercise must therefore be solid and completely understood.? This is why I use the 'marker' approach.? This is engrained into them that they will ONLY receive the bite (later on), once their paws make the physical connection with the object.? And teaching them to 'go to the object' reinforces their NEED to remain with it no matter what and not w/the decoy.? And as so many decoys 'drag' the dog from the object (even a few feet is loss of points)...that if the dog releases as he's supposed to after a bite; he must immediately realize that his place is BACK with the object....This is all done without any decoy present at the beginning.? When teaching any new exercise, I prefer not to train in defense as I want my dog to think clearly and be able to turn his drives 'off and on' in a split second.? At this point, the exercise is NOT about 'fighting' or defense...It is about teaching the foundation and its components.
***It's an exercise that most dogs fail in and very few manage to keep their object.? No two approaches (3 in total) are alike in FR and in the entire program it is the most MENTALLY challenging and stressful.? The decoy can be very creative in trying to provoke a dog to leave the basket and to bite early, or to remain on the bite and lose focus of releasing and returning to the basket...It's an exercise that the dog must be very balanced/clear headed, and have the ability to think; and an exercise that one could NEVER pattern train for.
***Hope that explains it a bit more.
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"Desire is the key to motivation, but it's the determination and commitment to an unrelenting pursuit of your goal - a commitment to excellence - that will enable you to attain the success you seek."
I guess I should have started this by asking a member of each discipline to briefly describe the excersice of their given sport. If we understand the excersise and how it is judged, then I think it would be easier to uderstand the different techniques.
My knowlege is limited so the experts will have to correct any mistakes.
French Ring- I know a little about this one. The basket is placed inside a 1 meter circle. The decoy is given 3 attempts to "steal" the basket. They are given a lot of time( a very long excercise) and leeway to mentally and physically challenge the dog. The dog is expected to bite the decoy when he come inside the 1 meter and release and go back to the basket before the decoy goes outside the 1 meter. Kadi, Brigita, how did I do?
Belgian ring--The excersise is performed with a muzzle and (i think) the decoy is in plain clothes. And the dog is supposed to aggressivly engage the decoy. This is about all I know about the Belgian version.
KNPV--I know nothing about how this excercise is performed but I saw some training for it and it intrigued me in that they were training similar to an IPO bark and hold. The dog was given little pops on the pinch collar to get him angry or in what I call "fight drive".
So from my very limited knowlege it seems to me(only my opinion) that Belgian and KNPV are not so concerned about technique but if the dog is going to aggressively engage the decoy while guarding the object. French Ring being more of a test of the dogs depth of training and mental character. Not saying any one is better than the other, just that when there are different goals and objectives you have different training techniques
So please critique and correct my observations to these excercises and then I will ask another training question.
? ? ? ? ? Christian
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"I have come to see my dogs as a reflection of my willingness to try to improve, as well as an unsparing measure of my frequent failures in doing so."
>>If we understand the excersise and how it is judged, then I think it would be easier to uderstand the different techniques.
***Absolutely.? It's vital to understand the 'goal' behind this exercise in the various programs...as they are all vastly different.? And to understand WHAT is being judged/marked...
***I think for BR...Martine is the lady to elaborate!? She is an 'expert' in her field/program!
>>KNPV--I know nothing about how this excercise is performed but I saw some training for it and it intrigued me in that they were training similar to an IPO bark and hold. The dog was given little pops on the pinch collar to get him angry or in what I call "fight drive".
***I'm not sure I understand the 'pop' w/respect to the article guard in KNPV??? But it can be done exclusively as a 'pattern trained' exercise.? In comparison to MR, BR, FR article guards...it's not nearly as technical...The handler carries usually a soft leather briefcase and heels his dog over to a predetermined spot.? He places the article down and the dog lies down beside it and the handler leaves.? The decoy does TWO 'attempts', and they are instantaneous.? The first is always a 'miss'.? He approaches from the same angle in front of the dog and walks past him--there is NO bite, no threat or intimidating presence from the decoy--the dogs know the first is a 'no bite'...Then he approaches the second time into the dog...The dog bites...The dog releases and returns to the object...The decoy walks away....This is done the same way for every dog and every trial.? There is no opposition, provocation, stealth, 'mind games', and they don't get extra points for aggression...If the basic components are executed as I described them...the dog will get full points and most do...The dog doesn't have to growl, bark, or put on a big defensive posture etc...
***As far as FR goes...we ALL start out with 400 points! lol? And then it goes downhill! ? The decoys JOB is to find and demonstrate weaknesses in your training AND/OR the dog's genetic character...They are the opposition...and their goal is to MAKE your dog lose points.? You don't want to pi$$ a FR judge off when a decoy doesn't do his 'job'.? Such is not the case with either KNPV nor IPO.? They adhere to a standard and work/test every dog the same way.? This can be good or it can be 'bad' depending on how you look at it...And as far as testing dogs goes...I would say BR (I love because they also do muzzle work/civilian and emphasize that great grip) along with MR also incorporate environmental stress into their exercises! However, the decoy opposition is the greatest in FR.
>>So from my very limited knowlege it seems to me(only my opinion) that Belgian and KNPV are not so concerned about technique but if the dog is going to aggressively engage the decoy while guarding the object.
***Well just so there isn't a generalization by others who know nothing or very little of the various programs...I think it's important that we make it clear that we're speaking of ONE exercise here...But across the board, or IOW the entire program BR is a technical program--much more so than KNPV.? And in BR's article guard...we're speaking of civilian clothes (so suit happy dogs need not apply lol) and a muzzle...The dog will have aggressive traits to carry out this exercise.? In KNPV to do this same exercise...the dog does not need to have any civil/aggressive traits to get full points.? A 'sport' dog can do this beautifully.? IMHO...BR makes it about the 'man' (in this exercise)...due to lack of equipment/suit...and due to use of muzzle.? Big difference in that program in this exercise from any of the other established programs.
***Hope that's clearer than mud!? ?
***Martine, I hope you will add the details of this exercise in your program and what it is the judges are looking for marking...and what a dog must demonstrate to get the full points!? Thanks! IOW, WHAT makes a GREAT article guard dog in your program???
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"Desire is the key to motivation, but it's the determination and commitment to an unrelenting pursuit of your goal - a commitment to excellence - that will enable you to attain the success you seek."
First of all: ?In BR there are 2 object guards. ?One with muzzle and one without muzzle. ?AND to me it is the most difficult and most technical exercise of all. ?50 points out of 400 are on object guard (5 attempts: 3 without and 2 with muzzle).
Like in FR, dogs also have to wait until the decoy is in the inner circle or they lose points. There are 3 circles. ?When the dog bites or punches in the inner circle he gets all points for distance. When he comes out of the inner circle (1.5meters) he loses 2 points and when he comes in the 3rd circle he loses 5 points. ?Maximum points per attempt is 10. Attempts are always different. ?Sometimes very brutal, sometimes very friendly (to try to not let him bite). Sometimes fast, sometimes very slowly. Sometimes the decoy has an obstacle the dog has to go through, sometimes not.
Stress factor is VERY high (most difficult exercise in the program), because the dog has to wait until the decoy enters the inner circle (no matter how much he is provoked and how eager he is to bite) and then still use all his force to punch or bite very good (there are points on quality of punch and grip too). The dog must be able to handle the stress and still go for it. ?Weaker dogs sometimes just don?t come off their object anymore. ?
Muzzle guard often is done with decoy and 1 or more civil decoys trying to distract the dog, while the real bad guy comes from behind. ?Also very difficult for a dog. ?He has to watch the whole area.
Muzzle guard is very difficult to do for a sporty type of dog, because they really have to go for "the man" here + the muzzle makes some dogs feel vulnerable and they get uncomfortable.
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? The decoys JOB is to find and demonstrate weaknesses in your training AND/OR the dog's genetic character...They are the opposition...and their goal is to MAKE your dog lose points.? You don't want to pi$$ a FR judge off when a decoy doesn't do his 'job'.? Such is not the case with either KNPV nor IPO.? They adhere to a standard and work/test every dog the same way.? This can be good or it can be 'bad' depending on how you look at it...And as far as testing dogs goes...I would say BR (I love because they also do muzzle work/civilian and emphasize that great grip) along with MR also incorporate environmental stress into their exercises! However, the decoy opposition is the greatest in FR.
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