I know who you are but we have never met. I have worked a few k9training days when you were there. I trained with Gregg Tawney for many years. Good luck out there and use your knowlege and experience to educate. Law enforcement k9 programs can only benifit from people who have the ability to show what these "new" training techniques are capable of. I hope you continue on this forum, I think you have alot to contribute.
Marie, You are so intelligent and capable yet when it comes to this subject you are letting personal opinion and emotion totally ruin any credable arguement. You really kind of killed yourself from the begining by personally attacking someone who has attained levels of success most of us can only dream of; not very smart. You have had at least 6 trainers of various disciplines and levels of competitive sucess(The very top levels I might add) as well as people trained in Law enforcement attempt to explain their use of the e-collar. You just will not see your position any other way. Like Brigita says and I have said before, People are afraid of the unknown or what they don't understand. I am always challenging people to push the envelope, open your minds, and try to make yourself better. I have really enjoyed many of your posts and agree with some pf your philosophies. I think you are a very intelligent lady. I challenge you to hold true to your beliefs. Instead of attacking and then getting mad and saying "I'm not playing anymore.",Tell us how you or people in your counrty train and maybe some of us will try your techniques!
HI, Brigita good posts. Talk with you all again......
Christian
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"I have come to see my dogs as a reflection of my willingness to try to improve, as well as an unsparing measure of my frequent failures in doing so."
I think I jumped the gun. I looked back at one of your earlier posts and sy you have Malinios. The guy I was thinking of had a Dutchie and was from I think Modesto PD and moved somewhere back east.
My apologies if I have the wrong man. What department in California did you work for? If you don't want to answer that I understand or maybe you can send me a personal message. Anyway, welcome glad your here!!!
Christian
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"I have come to see my dogs as a reflection of my willingness to try to improve, as well as an unsparing measure of my frequent failures in doing so."
My apologies if I have the wrong man. What department in California did you work for? If you don't want to answer that I understand or maybe you can send me a personal message. Anyway, welcome glad your here!!!
Hi!
Private message best!? Not that I have problem with info about police but you guys know how it is and you might get in trouble with your bosses.
It is nice to see police officers here and wouldn?t want to lose you guys.
And about the topic.. well maybe those who disagree would try to understand.. I am not big fan of e-collar neither and wouldnt use one, but wouldnt use one because I dont know how to use them and would probably sooner or later screw things up.
Bye, Raven
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Do not condemn the judgment of another because it differs from your own. You may both be wrong. ~Dandemis
>>There is one occation that I WOULD use it though..
***It is sad that your view of this tool is so limited ? It's application has far greater uses than only 'severe punishment/extinction'...
***And if one reads the post...The message is quite clear that you indeed made the analogy of its use to 'murder'...
***I think at this point; the discussion has deteriorated beyond 'ridiculous' and although difficult many times for everyone to 'be on the same page'...you and I are on different PLANETS..
***Have a nice day!
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"Desire is the key to motivation, but it's the determination and commitment to an unrelenting pursuit of your goal - a commitment to excellence - that will enable you to attain the success you seek."
>>but wouldnt use one because I dont know how to use them and would probably sooner or later screw things up.
***Raven, my respect to you for recognizing your own limitations instead of criticizing a tool which has proven to have positive and beneficial results for others around the world.? Thank you.?
Brigita
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"Desire is the key to motivation, but it's the determination and commitment to an unrelenting pursuit of your goal - a commitment to excellence - that will enable you to attain the success you seek."
Is it only mals from Belgium ring that are real dogs, are all other "petdogs", and because of this some people can train them without e-collars, or what is the discussion here? The mals in Sweden seems to be a mix of BR/FR/SCH/KNPV-dogs, and it sounds naturall that they are similar to mals in other countries because of this. Maybe it?s true that there are more "extreme" dogs in Belgium, but on the other hand there are very limited use of such dogs here, because who would need them and be able to train them? Apparantly the police/military and competitiors in mondio,SCH and the swedish defenceprogramm are satisfied with the type of mals they have I guess. The ordinary police/sportsman doesn?t need a superdog that only could be trained with an e-collar, at least not in Sweden.
Must a dog be a "monster" to be of breedingquality? And like Vixax said, I don?t see the connection between e-collars and good dogs. But, with this said, e-collar training performed the right way by proffessionals isn?t a big deal in my opinion
The ordinary police/sportsman doesn?t need a superdog that only could be trained with an e-collar, at least not in Sweden.
This part I don't understand. Is superdog the one that can be trained only with e-collar? There is nothing super in that kinda dog. E-collar is not a medieval torturemachine, try to understand that. The signal is not so strong that a mal turns out a black, smoking laekenois with one signal.
Somehow it looks like attitude goes over rationality in here every now and then.
J
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Coffee and love are something you just can't warm up again.
Quote:Must a dog be a "monster" to be of breedingquality?
I think this is a topic for another discussion, but yes. Personally I would like to always get a puppy from this kind of dog. The definition of "monster" differs from person to person, but this is a good way.
I wonder what we will get at the end (10-30 years)? Monster Malinois that nobody can hadle anymore? There are not many people out there who are able to hadle monster dogs..LOL
Only a few extreme ones who has the knowledge..
hunden
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The truth is out there, but so are the lies. - Dana Scully
I don?t know how many of us would have a mal or any belgian if they would be monsters. For some it can be perfect dog and they definitly look for something that is close to monster.
A'Tim is a very civil type of dog.? He is very good to his own family but very dangerous for people he doesn't know.? It took me several months before I could take him out for a walk when we just got him (and I'm used to handling working dogs for years).
He never "plays".? He is very fond of me, but I'd never risk to play with him, even off the field, because this would be very dangerous.? Sometimes I'd like so much to really hug him or play with him, but this simply isn't possible.? He is no pet.? As soon as he feels the control is less he takes advantage of this and in his case this means danger.?
Nevertheless he lives in the house with us since he is retired and this works very well as long as we keep the control very strict.
I know he wouldn't suit many people, because of his dominance, but this is a choice we made when buying him and I never regretted it!
This dog is perfect for Martine.. For how many people he would be good choice? Not many I guess since he would be too much to handle. If you go for such dog than that dog has to be your life style since more or less you have to change your life..
Now what I am thinking is if we go for "monster" breeding idea than I don?t know how many will have mals.. The main problem is society and the way they look at dogs, dog jumps on someone, scratches him and it is already dog attack, court,settlements or some other way of payment.. in no time there is law banning mals.
Malinois is now at top, best working dog there is and that is a fact but somehow it is still not enough.. what will be the end result of it all?
About e-collars and "monsters".. do you guys really think e-collar can help you if you can?t handle a dog like that? And get it in you head people.. e-collar is not 220 volts that comes to your computer...!
Bye, Raven
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Do not condemn the judgment of another because it differs from your own. You may both be wrong. ~Dandemis
working dog is a tool - when police or military get new dog and that green handler has just so much time to train dog; what do you think what kind of dog would be more suited to him? Handler sensitive or very hard dog? If you have limited time for training force does work best. Some people just don't have luxury of hobby/sport people to give so much time to 'pure' motivational methods.
Give inexpirienced handler fast, 250 km/h going sporty mal that is handler sensitive and what happens? Dog is nuts is fast everything is excelent BUT YOU CAN'T RAISE YOUR VOICE ON HIM NOT TO TALK ABOUT MISCORECTIONS/OVERCORECTIONS NEW HANDLERS GIVE.
Watering breed down so it could better suit general public is not the way to go.
In the end we ARE talking about different dogs here. Hobby dogs and serious dogs - and this is not my ego talking.
I always look for exceptional dogs that have "too much" of everything to use as breeding stock, but I don't think this will lead to a "monster breed".
Usually you lose a bit with every generation (and the" monster" gives perfect working dogs that are easier to handle ). But continue breeding with these next generations and the breed will get weaker and weaker.
There will be some offspring however that takes exactly after the parents and these are the ones that should be used to continue the line. You must be VERY selective with choice of breeding stock to keep the breed at the same level.
That's the way we have been breeding over here for many years already and the dogs nowadays certainly aren't more "monsters" then their ancestors.
That's also why I'm not impressed when people say "from NVBK lines". First I have to know from which individual (there are very few I really like) and then I still have to see is he takes after the parents.
E-collar is not a medieval torturemachine, try to understand that. The signal is not so strong that a mal turns out a black, smoking laekenois with one signal.
J
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I understand that, but one the same time people and breeders sometimes say they have so extreme and aggressive dogs that e-collars are the only way to train them, and sometimes they still can?t train the dog even with an e-collar, in such cases you start to think if the dog is "extreme", or if the truth is clumsy training or just a crazy dog, and is this kind of dog the only good dogs to breed to, otherwise you will have soft petdogs?
I?m sure that Vixax, and me too, are not talking about only positive methods, rather a mix of motivational methods and corrections when needed, but with methods legal here, corrections doesn?t need to come from an e-collar so to speak. But maybe a new topic about what is acceptable breedingdogs can be started, what is a "monsterdog" and just a pet/hobby dog that someone said?
Author
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Not that I have problem with info about police but you guys know how it is and you might get in trouble with your bosses.
? It's application has far greater uses than only 'severe punishment/extinction'...
and also very true
