Well, when it comes to good dogs many breeders have been to Belgium to mate (among other dogs A?tim is used) Grin So we do have good dogs here as well...
Yes indeed, he has been used once and the breeder was a very nice man. He told us a lot about the malinois in Sweden and your character test. But which other NVBK lines have been used?
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Anyway, I dont like the tone so I wont get into this more..You seem to think we are wimps with pet dogs, so let it be so
That's the way you state it.... Exactly the tone of your message and the reason why you started it....
I do think that you have completely other dogs then we have indeed. I don't only think it, I know it but as long as you're happy with them I don' care (I don't have to train them do I ) and I respect that. When I read statements in topics that are ridiculous to me I don't react. Everybody has the right to his own opinion so I always try to be diplomatic.
But I don't like being attacked by some newbee who's just trying to start some commotion without having a clue of what it is about. Maybe you'd better not be so frustrated and spend your time on the training field so you can start a topic about your achievements.... one day maybe
It is no secret that I used to train BR at a low level here in Belgium and I had the same reservation towards e-collar and he put the e-collar of his dog that he had just been using on his dog in training on my hand and there was no electrifying going on. No pain.
Would I myself use it: No
Do I mind other people using it: No - providing that the one using it knows how to use it and I think that that is a bigger problem.
Any training method can be used but also abused.
Saskia
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He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
To me the electric collar is a tool, no different from a leash, choke collar or pinch collar.? If used properly the stimulation is a signal to the dog that what he is doing is not correct.? The key is that if properly introduced, the dog knows how to turn off the stimulation or better yet not feel it at all.
Once I find the proper level of stimulation I know that the correction is exactly the same every time.? You can't do that with a leash and collar.
The other thing that I think is very important is that you are always in a position to correct the dog.? Consistancy is very important in dog training.? If you let your dog off leash and he doesn't listen to you when you call him back you have just taught him something (he doesn't have to listen to you when he is off leash).
I work my dog (police K9) with an electric collar.? Why??? He is very obedient but I like having the collar as backup in case something happens that I can't control (another officer jumps out between me and a suspect and the dog starts to go after the officer).? I can also recall him without using my voice, thus not giving away my position.?
I have yet to see a successful dog trained for police or security work that was trained without the use of some type of corrections.? I also laugh when I see people advocate those halti or head collars.? Maybe they are okay for a low drive pet dog but when a high drive dog gathers himself and leaps to the end of the line and practically has his head wrenched off do they think that feels any better than an electric stimulation or a pinch from a prong collar?
The bottom line is to educate yourself in all areas of training...even those you don't like or think that you don't like ( "don't knock it till you try it").? I was against using electric collars until I went to a seminar where they were being used PROPERLY.? I have been to seminars with Bart Bellon and Brian Mowry and both are very knowledgeable in the use of electronic collars.
The electronic collar is a tool. Yes, it is a powerful tool - it can really hurt a dog and leave a lasting impression that is negative. But, as a tool, it is intrinsically neutral. Like a hammer that can be used to build a roof over your head or to hit you in the head. It is who holds the hammer that matters most.
The problem with electronic collars - in my opinion (and I've stated this before) - is that the majority of people I see using them are doing so improperly.
Take a seminar with Bart Ballon. Go train with Martine. Do this first and you will see that this 'tool' is used intelligently, effectively and - most importantly - humanely.
I know it's hard to believe. I didn't believe for many years. I refuse to hurt my dogs to train them. But I discovered that there was a way to use this 'tool' and take my training to a new level with out harming my dogs who are - first and foremost - my friends.
So your department SOP allows for the use of the e-collar while you are on duty? If so that is great. So many departments have the old school mentality of "having an e-collar shows that you don't have control over your dog".
IMO, if law enforcement agencies were educated in the use of the e-collar, and allowed officers to use it while on duty, the number of "accidental or unjustified" bites and resulting lawsuits would drop dramatically. I don't understand why this concept is so hard to understand??
Sorry got on my soapbox again.....
Jeff i like your ideas and find it refreshing that it comes from a member of law enforcement. I look forward to hearing more from you.
? ? ? ?Christian
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"I have come to see my dogs as a reflection of my willingness to try to improve, as well as an unsparing measure of my frequent failures in doing so."
It makes me feel bad that people automatically assume abuse with the e-collar. All the discussion boards have this kind of thing. You can hurt your dog just as badly w/out the e-collar.
I also find that the people that are disbelieving that there are dogs out there that with e-collars work well. To look at it from a different light, we are amazed that you are willing to let the breed fall to a point were they would be to weak to need it.
A friend told me today: It is easy to get conformation back, the working ability doesn't come back. She also talked to me about the weakening of the breed. It is happening, and we cannot do anything about it. It is easy to have lots of weak dogs, what do they do??? Not so easy to have a lot of strong dogs. We will always lose the battle. That is why posts like this rattle us. I have been there before with favorite breeds. So sad really.
;)H i There:) Just the stupid Newbee here Just a shor answer before I skip this thread... Well, I dont see the connection between a GOOD dog and a WEEK dog using E-collars? So does not the rest of the people I train with, and I DO train with strong dogs..I train with many police officers, securityguards, I KNOW you dont belive that we have strong dogs, I can not proove it to you either..Except we live in the third largest city of Sweden, and all the dogs in my training group gets to WORK during nights..searching criminals, catching thieves...
(for the KNPV lines i Sweden I cant tell you... I can only say that I have seen the REAL pedigrees behind some of the dogs with FCI pedigrees..)Its both KNPV/NVBK
Anyway, we have a tottaly different kind philosophy..no use arguing over that anymore And if You think I am a week person with soft dogs, well let it be that way...
In our program, that is mostly a program where you use a muzzle, most of the dogs are a bit pissed off. To be able to do exersises where you make attacks and hit hard most dogs needs to be a bit angry... especially chasing a man and hit hard in the back... when the threat is gone and the dog hs to run/hunt it has to be a good dog to still make bite attempts and hard hits even though he knows, time after time that he will get no bite! (and pain in his nose) And we all know that its easier to control a dog that is NOT Angry...but we still dont use E-collars cause we simply dont belive in it... As I said, I will not defend myself or my dogs anymore , and I do respect you opinions i this matter. No use discussing this more for mer. Have a nice day out there:
I am not doubting that you have good dogs or that they are under control.? You started this thread by criticizing the use of electronic collars and I, as well as others were only defending our use of them as a humane tool if used properly.
To Christian...
My department doesn't necessarily advocate the use of ecollars but there is nothing prohibiting their use either.? Since my dog is under much better control than any of the other dogs in the unit (I trained him from a pup) the trainer or administrators don't prevent me from using it.?
Most people in my area don't use ecollars but they will still swing their dogs by the neck (helicoptering) and tie their dogs to a post with a long line to teach the call-off (stopped attack).? But use an ecollar?? That is abuse.
The hard part is that I am in USPCA country back here in DC and everyone trains the same way and have never seen anything else.? I transferred back here from California.? Definately much better training out there.? ?Hopefully people in this area will come around eventually... not just regarding ecollar use but just in modern dog training in general.? I feel sometimes that I am in the dark ages of dog training here.
There is NO need to defend your training to anyone...Those of us who have been around for a while and have followed your many successes with dogs from Xastar to A'Tm and now Fils and Gast...AND on a National level!!!...Have NO doubts as to your abilities (AND your husband's) and qualifications as a TRAINER! ?Your credibility and resume speak for themselves! ?Let your dogs do the 'talking'!
What I have found over the years though...that MOST (not all) when they try to discuss/criticize ?things like the ecollar (as in this example)...it is usually because they don't understand it, have never worked with it etc...Such a discussion is usually OUTside their comfort zone...And people being people: ?What they don't understand they fear and at times despise...They will have their OPINIONS without having the facts...nor will they search out facts...And that's just the way it is. ?It's sad. ?For anyone (including ourselves) to LEARN how to use such a tool...we have to have an 'open mind' and an objective approach.
Continue doing what you are doing!
Have some people NEVER asked themselves...that if the ecollar is so cruel, painful, and abusive if used correctly...Then WHY do the dogs wearing them, seem to happy and motivated?? ?There is no logic to this ? ?Yet, I lost count of how many times I've seen dogs trained traditionally with a leash and chain collar...CRAWL on the ground during OB, tail between their legs, shake so bad, that you would think they're going to have a seizure etc....I don't know what it will take to educate people that it's NOT the tool; but HOW one applies it....
You know...There is nothing worse than having a bunch of spectators on the sidelines criticizing and judging those on the field...But those opinionated spectators have never trained a dog from the ground up and have never competed beyond a local level themselves....The same is with the ecollar...They criticize and judge the tool and those who use it...BUT they have aboslutely NO experience nor knowledge about it...
Brigita--wishing you and your husband the BEST in 2006!
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"Desire is the key to motivation, but it's the determination and commitment to an unrelenting pursuit of your goal - a commitment to excellence - that will enable you to attain the success you seek."
>>Most people in my area don't use ecollars but they will still swing their dogs by the neck (helicoptering) and tie their dogs to a post with a long line to teach the call-off (stopped attack).? But use an ecollar?? That is abuse.
***I know...absolutely AMAZING isn't it???!!!? Jeff, it's sounds like training is progressing in the fact that they will allow you to use this tool...So much more civilized isn't it?? And a much easier and clearer way to communicate to the dog...There are so many reasons I can think of as to why one should use it...and only one reason as to why they shouldn't (lack of knowledge/ability...IOW improper use).
***Good Luck and Stay Safe!
Brigita
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"Desire is the key to motivation, but it's the determination and commitment to an unrelenting pursuit of your goal - a commitment to excellence - that will enable you to attain the success you seek."
Well I dont want to fight with you... please...I will never bring the subject up again but the logic limps... I dont have to have experiense of murder to know that its not a good thing (I am NOT comparing murder/e-collar) Just the comparison.... I dont have to use it to understand the impact...
There is one occation that I WOULD use it though..that is if I got an adult dog, with the habit of chasing wild animals...in iorder to protect the dog from itself i would gladly press the trigger..I lost a dog that was hunting a moose once...ran out on a road and got hit by a car...(that dog came to me as a 9 months teenage juvenile) That was a dog that you could NOT reach...If Ihad him as a pup..it would never had happen... Cheers to you all!!
Then WHY do the dogs wearing them, seem to happy and motivated?
I'd quibble with this a bit. I have seen many, many dogs that suffer from abusive training methods - both with and without electricity - that still maintain animated 'happy' demeanors on the competition field.
One of the easiest ways to create 'drive' is to pressure (use harsh training methods) the dog. Administered intelligently (and unethically) electricity can be used as a severe punisher and negative reinforcer to create 'drive.' Conflict in the dog appears to most people as 'drive'.
I have seen many judges praise a dog's 'working attitude' when I can see that the 'working attitude' the judge is describing as a positive is really the result of a dog that is under heavy stress.
Another danger with the use of electricity is that a lot of people - most in my opinion -? believe they know how to train with electricity in a humane way. Most do not. I have them in my own club.
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) and I respect that. 
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? ?There is no logic to this ?
?Yet, I lost count of how many times I've seen dogs trained traditionally with a leash and chain collar...CRAWL on the ground during OB, tail between their legs, shake so bad, that you would think they're going to have a seizure etc....I don't know what it will take to educate people that it's NOT the tool; but HOW one applies it.... 
Well I dont want to fight with you... please...I will never bring the subject up again 
but the logic limps...
