Her I think I will add some fire to the messageboard..
I dont know about you guys..but this kind of training/dog , I am not really comfortable with it at all... I find it NON ethical do train/treat a dog like this (ducking behind something)
Its fairly easy to take a small pup, let it bite, bite bite, make it stand ALL kind of things, and just let it win...and THEN put e collars all over the dog to get control...to me its NOT a good training method.....OR is to hard (have not the capability to cooperate) Should we breed on dogs that has to be trained using E.collars?
Our dogs wear their e-collars from puppyhood and for them it is a piece of equipment like a leash or a collar. Thing is we know how to use it....
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Its fairly easy to take a small pup, let it bite, bite bite, make it stand ALL kind of things, and just let it win
The first time Gast was on a full bitesuit was after he changed teething so does that mean early? Before that time our pups just bite the leg sleeve.
Guess the dogs we are used to just are SO different from the ones you know....
For personal protection and the training we like, we need a dog to be strong. If I wanted a pet to do some play training with, I'd take another breed. Last thing I would do is make a pussycat out of a malinois .... The characteristics you people are trying to breed into the malinois is a catastrophy for the breed!!
It is always ok to critisize animal abusing, but can you really say, Vixax, that abusing is happening on those pics you now lended in here?
BSD is energetic dog, should be strong and capable for hard work. Also our showlined ones. The more hysterical we go against different lines and start to pick them, the more damage we do to our own business and ideas.
I was hysterizing also about equipment, before I really understood, that the worst abuser is a human, not the equipment. I could take a pic of me carrying a fork in my right hand and keeping a leash of my stingnose Nelli in the left, could you tell are we gonna go for a dinner or am I gonna make her sit faster by sticking her in the butt with that fork? And I've seen that happen too, and I am still not ready to yell that we have to eat our steaks with spoon and forks are from purgatory.
Of course we should not breed the dogs we can not handle. But if one can not handle BSD, one should go for another breed.
J
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Coffee and love are something you just can't warm up again.
Her I think I will add some fire to the messageboard..
I dont know about you guys..but this kind of training/dog , I am not really comfortable with it at all... I find it NON ethical do train/treat a dog like this (ducking behind something)
Its fairly easy to take a small pup, let it bite, bite bite, make it stand ALL kind of things, and just let it win...and THEN put e collars all over the dog to get control...to me its NOT a good training method.....OR is to hard (have not the capability to cooperate) Should we breed on dogs that has to be trained using E.collars?
How many of you out there do like this?
***MY guess is that you are not comfortable with it because you truly don't understand it...
***In your opinion...how is it that they are treating this dog??? What part of this is 'non-ethical'?? Just trying to understand where you're coming from....
***When you have a strong dog, strong character...which I hope we are ALL striving for if we are breeding and training...Then the ecollar provides wonderful COMMUNICATION to train such a dog without unnecessary conflict that traditional methods would bring....
***As far as 'breeding such dogs' goes; the dogs which have 'a bit too much of everything' are the ONLY dogs we should be breeding to...
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"Desire is the key to motivation, but it's the determination and commitment to an unrelenting pursuit of your goal - a commitment to excellence - that will enable you to attain the success you seek."
I don?t like el. collars.. not because they wouldn?t be a tool but because it is easily abused and some frustrated trainer could just go for the buttons..
They are illegal in some countrys (I am sure for Slovenia and Sweden) and by that they should not be used!
Am I saying don?t train with them? NO, I am saying leave them alone if you don?t know what you are doing. When we see dogs working in short clips on internet or read about them it all looks and sounds so simple but it is not.
There are several myths about ecollars (even some with sparks flying) and a lot of them have to do with malfunction or idiot handler.
Couple years back I saw what abuse is (using ecollar) when I was at training for gsd ipo wc.. I was shocked.. Collar was definitly used for punishment and dog pissed it self. One other method they used was grabing dogs upper lip and rolling it over its nose. I had old school trainer at the time and he threw them from club in first 5 minutes.
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As far as 'breeding such dogs' goes; the dogs which have 'a bit too much of everything' are the ONLY dogs we should be breeding to...
This are dogs that are great for serious trainers but that would mean this is a breed reserved just for some which is not and my question is: When is it enough? I am sure most people wouldnt be able to control some "serious" dog and would have serious problem at home and everywhere they would go. Mals are at their best at moment and I am affraid breeding will go over the top and that will be start of downfall of mal. But I am off topic now..
Bye, Raven
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Do not condemn the judgment of another because it differs from your own. You may both be wrong. ~Dandemis
>>This are dogs that are great for serious trainers but that would mean this is a breed reserved just for some which is not and my question is: When is it enough? I am sure most people wouldnt be able to control some "serious" dog and would have serious problem at home and everywhere they would go. Mals are at their best at moment and I am affraid breeding will go over the top and that will be start of downfall of mal. But I am off topic now..
***Raven...this isn't about 'this type of dog for a serious TRAINER'....This is about 'this type of dog for the serious BREEDER'...the person/breeder who maintains the workability for those wishing to TRAIN and/or compete....EVERY generation will have LESS workability, if one continues to breed MEDIOCRE dogs to MEDIOCRE dogs...It's the EXTREME dogs that maintain that workability in a line.? 90% of the offspring from extreme dogs will be 'LESS' than the parents are...The same goes for 'mediocre' dogs...One breeds from an extreme dog...and MOST of the litter will be less than the 'extreme' parent...but great for competition and/or street work...AND great for MOST of the trainers/handlers...
***And actually I have to disagree that 'Mals are their best now' statement...They are going down-hill...There are many (with numbers rising) that CAN'T work...have little drives...But they can watch TV with you...And their genetic (medical) problems are on the rise...
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"Desire is the key to motivation, but it's the determination and commitment to an unrelenting pursuit of your goal - a commitment to excellence - that will enable you to attain the success you seek."
I gussed I would create some "noice" Well, I still think its something wrong with a trainingmethod that has to electrifye dogs...and I DO think we have equal strong dogs here..except we train them differently... The last ten years or so the malinois bred in Sweden, they come fron known NVBK-lines and known strong dogs...its the same dogs that are used in belgium... I have been looking at the dogs doing Ringsports..and I am convinced that if you used different methods you wouldnt be needing E-collars all over the dog...The Swedes are doing quite fine in MR though we only have a bout 10 people performing the sports, no competitions and hardly no decoys..we still managed to get 8 place in worldchampionships... Every year Sweden or Norway wins the worldchampionships in obedience... We DO have something to add when it comes to relationships with the dog...
I do not wish to diminish anyone, and Gast is a good looking dog, and I just see the e-colar around his waist, that tells me that someone had problems with teaching him the outs?? Or what was the correction around his neck and belly used for? Why doesnt he listen to his handlers commands without electrifye him? I am just curious?
I wish you all could see some really god, serious , hardbiting Swedish dogs do muzzlework , with absolute control, and no electrisity whatsoverer Have anice day you all...
from what i have read here Sweden has some pretty damn good methods for obediance: do you care explaining priciples of training and techniques in obediance and protection obediance here? Or do i have to buy video?
Can someone please teach me how to get dog off a man in a hearthbeat with motivational methods or recall like in fr if dog is not in pure pray mode?
It is all nice and dandy for sport field - but we are talking k9 here...
Too much semantics fights (like that 'fight drive' thread) and too little hard usable information...
P.S. downfall of mals is here - few days ago i hear this chick bought herself mal pup because she liked collor... and idiot breeder sold it no questions asked. It is her first dog! Most people make big fuss on 'normal puppy' (read watered down - CGC to be style pup) behaviour... i am shure she did not even get reall thing but it is problem allready (2.5 months)... so what do you do? People want nice collor and mals are 'in' but joe schmoe can't handle it - you build 'replica' with 50ccm instead of 500ccm... and ofcourse you won't cull 500euros... what kind of idiot would throw away solid cash?
Well, I still think its something wrong with a trainin gmethod that has to electrifye dogs...and I DO think we have equal strong dogs here..except we train them differently...
If this really would be true, your training methods wouldn?t work.
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The last ten years or so the malinois bred in Sweden, they come fron known NVBK-lines and known strong dogs...its the same dogs that are used in belgium...
I STRONGLY doubt that?but of course I can be wrong. I don?t know of any ?good? NVBK dogs that have been sold to Sweden. Can you give some examples?
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The Swedes are doing quite fine in MR though we only have a bout 10 people performing the sports, no competitions and hardly no decoys..we still managed to get 8 place in worldchampionships...
Don?t compare this to BR PLEASE!!!!!
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Every year Sweden or Norway wins the worldchampionships in obedience...
Very good illustration of the type of dogs you are working (and this doesn?t mean I don?t respect obedience training but it requires another type of dog)
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We DO have something to add when it comes to relationships with the dog...
I can tell you for sure that there isn?t any one who loves her dogs more then I do? AND I can tell you for sure that there aren?t any dogs devoted more to their masters then ours.
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I do not wish to diminish anyone, and Gast is a good looking dog, and I just see the e-colar around his waist, that tells me that someone had problems with teaching him the outs?? Or what was the correction around his neck and belly used for?
I think you?d be calling for YOUR mommy if you worked a dog like him with the mommy/baby method. I already explained the use of neck and belly collar in another topic so I?m not going to repeat it.
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I wish you all could see some really god, serious , hardbiting Swedish dogs do muzzlework , with absolute control, and no electrisity whatsoverer
I?ve seen some video and the difference was clear to me yes? If you would come over and watch some good BR training you?d see it too
Well, when it comes to good dogs many breeders have been to Belgium to mate (among other dogs A?tim is used) So we do have good dogs here as well... Anyway, I dont like the tone so I wont get into this more..You seem to think we are wimps with pet dogs, so let it be so I have seen the Belgian Ring Championships this year, and MR impress me more...but thats just my opinion Train as you like I will find the thread where E-collar is discussed, and hopefully I will find the answer to Why a dog is considered good if he can take a lot of volts*he he* Take care out there I will show up in other threads
I saw this thread a little late. The problem here is what is the topic? Marie, I have enjoued your insight and opinions because they have usually been backed up with some logical, fact based, information. Here, I think your emotion and personal opinion is clouding your judgement.
There were so many points made in different directions I don't know exactly what to say but will try to voice my opinion on what I think are the important one.
Abuse is ultimatley purely subjective. There are so many variables. The use of the tool(not the tool itself), the temperment of the dog, does the dog psycologically understand what is expected/happening?
I am all for pyscological, non compulsive training. E-collars, pinch collars, even a little knee to the shoulder, is not abusive if the dog can physically take it and it is administered correctly for the dog to understand. I don't think I would try to give A'tim a little knee to the shoulder though
It boils down to different dogs, different goals, and different techniques. My ultimate question is: Is what you are doing working for you and your dog? If it is great carry on and try to teach others how to do it.
Christian
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"I have come to see my dogs as a reflection of my willingness to try to improve, as well as an unsparing measure of my frequent failures in doing so."
I don't see how using one piece of equipment to inflict pain stimulus is any more unethical than the next. I use these methods and the level of stimulation is directly relative to the dog's pain tolerance/threshold. I find the e-collar an effective tool to apply indirect pressure during training. When, negative stimulus becomes too much for the dog the equipment has lost it's effectiveness so there is no point to continue using it in this way.
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I dont know about you guys..but this kind of training/dog ,
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I gussed I would create some "noice"
