Ethical?

[Jeff Oehlsen]

Quote:I wonder what we will get at the end (10-30 years)? Monster Malinois that nobody can hadle anymore? There are not many people out there who are able to hadle monster dogs.

Maybe you should talk to some people about this. Your knowledge seems limited to pretty.

[Raven]

Quote:I wonder what we will get at the end (10-30 years)? Monster Malinois that nobody can hadle anymore? There are not many people out there who are able to hadle monster dogs.

Maybe you should talk to some people about this. Your knowledge seems limited to pretty.

Hi!

Erm, what has knowledge got to do with it? She asked a question. Since it is pointless that this all goes into knowledge pissing contest why don?t you just answer?`

But I think workingmalinois answered good.. Although we can?t tell the future and what future generations of malinois will be..

I just hope that in 20 years we won?t have 3 different kinds of malinois (if we are not there already since more or less this is how some people devide mals):
1. show mals
2. "real" or "monster" mals
3. "normal" mals

Bye, Raven

PS: Although sometimes looks like hunden is show girl it is far from it.. she is just somewhere in middle (like me) of show and work.. her home is protected by son of Funk to Funky Perle de Tourbiere?

[hunden]

Maybe you should talk to some people about this. Your knowledge seems limited to pretty.

Oh, thank you for telling me?, So Im not allowed to have questions? My question was to people with knowledge and it seams you are not one of them, since you only know how to use sarkasm insted of telling what you know or what you think you know? . But I got some answers from people with real knowledge before your post.

hunden

[Jeff Oehlsen]

You are right I should of answered. I am not good at typing, so things end up pretty short.

When you breed a dog, you want the dog to be extreme. Nature always tries to go back to average. So when you breed a middle of the road dog, the pups are about half of what he is. Same goes for the female. So to combat taking the breed into the sh%tter, you want to use extreme dogs. Take a look at the dogs that are used most. They are not anywhere near average. Their average is still above most dogs. If you take an average dog, you will get way below average. This is why monsters should be bred so that we can keep the level of the Mals where it is at.

[hunden]

Ok, thanks, I get it now.? I liked this anwer more? ..

thanks again

hunden

[Jeff Oehlsen]

I can't wait until we have microphones and can just speak. I can't really get much across with this typing crap. Too slow fingers, too fast brain.

[hunden]

Yeah I know what you mean, and sometimes its very easy to misunderstand people and everything goes wrong

Maby in future there will be talking forums, hey 30 years ago, who thought the computer stuff would get this far..

Ok, lets go back to the real topic again..

hunden

[Vixax]

 :)Hi You all...(thanks for your nice words Pete)
I had to reinstall my PC and have been "offline" for a while..

I am so sorry if I have attacked anyone...when I am typing I try to add little smileys so that anyone can see that I am not "agressive" I am just questioning..I am SURE that anyone of you are GREAT dog trainers...I do respect your opinions and value your thoughts.

I have seen E-collars been used,  I DO believe that there are some points when it could be useful... I just feel that I am the one getting attacked. 
If I question the use of e-collar around the belly, neck and as I have seen sometimes the anus of the dog...the answer I get is

1. I don?t know what I am talking about
2 My dogs are too week
3 I am to week
4 real dogs need to be trained with this methods
5 I am afraid because I don?t know anything about it

So I DO appreciate you all in here, I do NOT want to end up being your enemy...so therefore to me it was no use continue this discussion.
Sometimes people are too different, and we can respect each others opinion anyway?
The difference I have seen in our way of training and the way I have been looking at KNPV/BR /MR get trained ( and I do not criticize or say that YOU do like this)  is that the handlers seems to raise their dogs above the skies in the beginning?bite bite bite bite, win win win..no obedience, no control?( Someone told me that they believed that if you put too much obedience in the beginning you will impede/obstruct the willingness to attack and bite)

The same goes for the chewing in the retrieving part..I asked why they allowed chewing..the answer I got was that if you made the dog not to chew the willingness to retrieve would diminish, and in BR/MR the objects can be very difficult ones?so you need a dog that really WANTS to retrieve?

To me it looks like  dogs are getting stronger and stronger and still the handler is just a piece of equipment hanging from the leash behind the dog?and after a while when the dog is the king of the world and can take the whole world himself..the handler tries to get some obedience/control?then the  exercises are to be tought?.and NOW comes the part..when the dog says:
?screw you!? I have done this by myself for quite a long time know, I can fix this dad?you don?t tell me how and WHEN to let out ..I want to BITE?

And NOW is the time I see e-collars all over the dog?.to get the dogs attention..to get him to let out, to get him do the recall and so on?maybe I have just seen poor trainers?

In our way of thinking, we start training our dogs when they are 8-12 weeks old.The first year we build a relationship with our dogs, 99% of all people live with their dogs ? I make myself so valuable to my dog so that the world rotates around me?I am the alpha person and as a pup my dog is extremely impressed with all my knowledge

I teach my dog the command ?out? when he is a puppy, I teach him all the obedience exercises..and slowly I raise him to the sky But I keep the demand for obedience, attention , control  in the same pace as I raise him to the sky..so by the time he thinks he is the king of the world, its US as a team that can beat any decoy, bad guy or whatsoever? :police:and  of course one day at the training field, my rascal little gangster will at some point try to give me the finger?and hell will brake loose.. of course I will never exept that...but since I have always been the stronger, wiser , clever one, since he was a pup...he will not challenge me that hard..and I do not have to use too fierce (I cant define what is fierce, it depends on the dog) methods before I bring him back to order again..of course you might think he is a week dog..but YOU try to correct him..OR the decoy could try , OR anyone else?.

How do people get lions, tigers, Elephants , killerwhales to do tricks??

Well saying all this, I still hope we can agree in disagreeing, and still be friends..I do NOT disrespect you..I was merely asking a question.
I am sorry if someone feels attacked and uncomfortable, that was not my intention.. I do respect A?Tims breeder and I might want to go there and use one of his dogs for mating one day.

Have a good day out there

[BarriquesNY]

Normally, I stay out of these discussions but I agree with Martine and Brigita. A good trainer does not condemn methods or tools they do not use, but rather keeps and open mind and does not rely on one method. I use e-collars in my training for many things but that doesn't mean that it is the only thing I use or that I abuse my dogs. Like Martine, and many of you...I LOVE my dogs!
  E-collars are not just for 'monster' or 'strong' dogs. They are wonderful for sensitive, soft dogs as well. It is quite a versatile tool. Many who view the e-collar as an abusive, god-awful invention for controlling monsters have no idea how to properly apply them to a training program. And by the way, nobody 'needs' to use an e-collar. We choose to because it is obviously a clear way to communicate with the dog 2 feet away or 200 feet away. When used properly, it lessens the conflict between dog and handler (or decoy and dog). This is important because sometimes it is a big problem with strong OR sensitive dogs.
  Sometimes you see the e-collar on the stomach(not testicles) and tail (not anus). With the educated trainers, there are very specific reasons for this, and non of those reasons are for abusing, torturing or intimidating the dog. Their meaning is VERY clear to the dog. To explain it is too much information to post here. You should visit Martine and John Lopez at their club and watch them train. Their dogs are clear in their work and happy to do it. But I will tell you since we are talking about him, Gast is NOT an easy dog! And while I love to pet and hug Tim, never would I try it without the suit on These dogs are no joke. To use an e-collar on these dogs incorrectly would be a BIG mistake. Many times, especially when you have a stronger dog or the dog has alot of drive for the bite, the 'out' they learned as a puppy is non exsistant and a reward or bribe is not enough to make them out consistantly. Sometimes it takes more reinforcement. As a good friend over there says " Train with your brain!"

"How do people get lions, tigers, Elephants , killerwhales to do tricks??"

Put the lion back back on the savanna and see how quickly you can teach him....if you are still in one piece! These trainers use alot of positive reiforcement BUT the animals are in a CONTROLLED environment. They give the animal no option other than to do what the trainer wants and then get rewarded. They forget to tell everyone that the large metal hooks and whips they carry AREN'T for decoration and that they will starve that animal to 'enhance his willingness to please'. But I guess we should all follow that example instead of taking advantage of technology.

I've been to Martine's club a few times now and they have a top notch program for their dogs. They do VERY well in competition and have some excellent young dogs I'm sure we will be hearing about soon. They use e-collars (and many other tools) but they also use their brains and the results speak for themselves. 

 

[BarriquesNY]

p.s. - on the type of malinois topic:  I don't believe malinois are for everyone that's why I like to see dogs that are a little too much. If everyone could own a malinois then we might as well trash our breeding programs now. They are suppossed to be high intensity, high drive, REACTIVE dogs....not labrador retrievers!

[ultramal]

Nicely said! 

[workingmalinois]

HI STEF!!

Didn't know you were on this board too!
Hope you and Wally are planning a trip to Europe again soon 

[sculpadog]

p.s. - on the type of malinois topic:? I don't believe malinois are for everyone that's why I like to see dogs that are a little too much. If everyone could own a malinois then we might as well trash our breeding programs now. They are suppossed to be high intensity, high drive, REACTIVE dogs....not labrador retrievers!

One remark: not all Malinois are as you like to see them !!

The Malinois you get is up to the breeding program and existing form.

I have had very stable, calm and serious Malinois. I also had crazy hyperactive ones. Had known fearsome shitty Malinois and even Malinois who doesn't want to work nor play at all. I have seen Malinois who had to be controlled as if crazy madmans but also Malinois in Policeforces who is awesome gentle to kids and people but forceful to criminals. I see many Malinois as petdogs and many more in sport. I have had a powerful real Malinois and there exist Malinois who only bites for prey.
To complete the list some (!) Malinois from showlines are way more like Labrador Retrievers and sometimes: even better !

The list is not even complete I think, but ya might get the idea.

Teus

[Jeff Oehlsen]

Which was your favorite type??

[sculpadog]

Which was your favorite type??

Jeff,

I prefer Malinois with golden character. Social and solid minded but awesome when working.
My favorites are Malinois with brains and good memory together with drives like Funk to Funky and his son Victor, Othar and Jeckel. But not insane reactive.

TEUS

((BTW .. Jeff ... how you manage to get that many smites on your name ??))