and yes it is a wide head, but why are almost all the epileptic problems to be found in the varieties that are (at this moment) mostly bred for their small heads.................
Hi!
Hm, interesting point, never thought of that.. You think it is possible that smaller heads would have something to do with it? Damn, we need someone with medical knowledge here..
bye, Raven
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Do not condemn the judgment of another because it differs from your own. You may both be wrong. ~Dandemis
and yes it is a wide head, but why are almost all the epileptic problems to be found in the varieties that are (at this moment) mostly bred for their small heads.................
Hi!
Hm, interesting point, never thought of that.. You think it is possible that smaller heads would have something to do with it? Damn, we need someone with medical knowledge here..
bye, Raven
dont know for sure, BUT it is something you almost never see in working line malinois (who mostly have wider skulls) and you see it more with the really small skulled tervs and groens........ so that is why that came to my mind..........
I suspect it's more a case of WHICH dogs were used to. In breeding for a "prefect" head, perhaps breeders happened to do a lot of breeding to a dog whose head was considered gorgeous, but who also carried epilepsy. By the time people realized this, it would have been all over the gene pool
Look at working Malinois pedigrees. If Elgos, or G'Bibber had happened to carry epilepsy, it would be a big problem in working Malinois at this point. There are probably some frequently used sires in Tervs and Groens who did carry it, hence the problem.
If you want to I can ask a friend of mine who is a vet but I am pretty sure that she will denie a relationship between narrow heads and epilepsy. ?There are several narrow-headed breeds who do not suffer from epilepsy. ?The problem in Tervs/Groens is mostly a gene defect which goes way back (and subsequently people keeping his/her dog's problem for themselves) and hopefully there will be an easy test in the future and then the problem can be eliminated to a greater extent very quickly based on the results of these tests. If you consider Grimm van de Hoge Laer. He is the sire of more than 100 litters in Belgium alone with an avarage of 8 pups per litter. If there is a problem in his genes, then the consequences are huge.
I have seen Carmen's dog for real more than once (althouh Carmen may not realize this) and besides the yellowish eyes (which were allowed at a certain point in time and should be the least of anybody's concern), my issues with his head are the following:
1. ?I think the ratio between skull and muzzle is out of balance. ?He has a long skull but a short muzzle. ?As you could see from the overview I gave through time, BSD head have always needed to be been long (When I come home I will try to put old BSD pictures and paintings on the net and you will see that they are long). ?I understand that from a working point of view a narrow skull is a problem (muscle attachement etc.) but is a muzzle that is equal in length to the skull a problem and if yes what problems will it cause? 2. ?Chisseling: a wide head doesn't mean that a head cannot be chissled. ?I have seen the "current" Amigo van het Davidshof (Sorry Jenny, in our last conversation we got them mixed up) in Oostende in September of this year and although he had a wide head, he did have a reasonably chisseled head. ?Carmen's dog's head made me think of a long-haired black GSD my ex-boyfriend had and of the GSD my sister has at home. ?It lacked in my opinion the necessary chisseling. ?Again does good chisseling cause any difficulty when a dog is working?
I would call his parallel lines (when writing a report) sufficient. ?He has indeed an excellent stop (which is important for me as it in my opinion contributes to the elegance of a dog's head) and almond shaped eyes (but for me a little bit less important).
When I was writing the overview through time, I always reflected on whether there was anything in the standard that prevented a dog from working (I am not talking about the way some people interpreted the standard - which is a whole different standard) and I couldn't come up with something except for maybe the teeth because a dog can nowadays miss so many teeth the it becomes hard to maintain good grip. ?If any of you guys (and girls of course ?) have different opinion or can point out the problems, please feel free to share.
Saskia
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>>When I was writing the overview through time, I always reflected on whether there was anything in the standard that prevented a dog from working (I am not talking about the way some people interpreted the standard - which is a whole different standard) and I couldn't come up with something except for maybe the teeth because a dog can nowadays miss so many teeth the it becomes hard to maintain good grip.
***I think you said this very well...and I agree that aside from missing teeth, there really is nothing in the standard that would conflict with workability.? Having said that I think the KEY 'problem' is twofold however, and what does conflict and is detrimental...1)Subjective interpretation and 2)Show Breeders (MOST) do not prove nor test their dogs' workabilities...yet will get their Ch. points and breed these dogs--without a 'working resume'...This only perpetuates the problem...And since we'll never resolve or change these two issues...I think show and work will stay on their own sides for the most part.
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Jenni, no need to get upset (if you are, I can't hear your tone), I just wanted to give my opinion as I know that dog lovers can't always be objective when it comes to their dogs. I'm well aware of the faults my dog has, but still I would probably feel hurt if somebody wrote that Sambo has a shitty head or something like that. And as we tend to judge a dog in a context I though it would be best to keep the dogs anonymous (not considering which kennel is he/she from and who is the owner). I think Saskia understood what I was trying to say. Raven, I know what you mean, it was a thought.
To comment on the heads - I like very much 'head #5' of the ones malndobe posted, of the young dog; definitely the one I like most from that dogs. The dog on Carmen's picture lacks elegance, in my opinion; the ear setting isn't the best, at least judging from these two pics, but the stop is certainly very nice!
Jenni, thx for the explanation on parallelism + bite work .
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yet will get their Ch. points and breed these dogs--without a 'working resume'
In Belgium you need a work test to become Belgian Champion. Previously the number of B-Ch was 0. Nowadays there are more and more B-Ch and there will be more.
Unfortunately, FCI doesn't accept the Belgian Worktest so our dogs can never become Int Ch.
Yentos just needed a few more months to get his CQN but then this program was cancelled because the FCI didn't recognise it. It was then changed to the current ECU program (obedience, agility, bitework on a full suit, tracking) but this program hasn't been accepted either by FCI. And now I have heard that they are going to change again.
Why do you think that there are so few people showing their dogs in Belgium? It never titles you dog so you go abroad.
Saskia
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He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
Show Breeders (MOST) do not prove nor test their dogs' workabilities
But it also the other way around? Why not try to breed more to the standard when there is nothing in the standard that prevents a dog from working when meeting the standard.
One of the ways of increasing character in the long-haired varieties is outbreeding to workinglines but since these people are not willing to sacrifice exterior too much and the workinglines do not live upto the standard to the level showpeople want, we are running circles.
If we want to come closer, it needs to come from both ways.
Saskia
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He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
>>Why do you think that there are so few people showing their dogs in Belgium?? It never titles you dog so you go abroad.
I don't think I even mentioned 'Belgium'...The world and the BSD go far beyond Belgium's borders...Most have negligible if ANY breeding/showing/working regulations...
>>Why not try to breed more to the standard
Whose standard Saskia?? You said yourself individual interpretations differ....BUT regardless, FORM MUST FOLLOW FUNCTION...So this statement regardless of one's interpretation should be EVERYONE's PRIORITY.? Once we all heed to this philosophy...the 'great divide' between show and work people will be much less...
For working people to sacrifice/dilute workability in favour of the exterior is sure death for the breed as a whole...Type is much easier to recapture what you have lost than it is to recapture lost workability...which again I must repeat is the hallmark of the breed and a priority and one which should always come BEFORE form.
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"Desire is the key to motivation, but it's the determination and commitment to an unrelenting pursuit of your goal - a commitment to excellence - that will enable you to attain the success you seek."
He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
Just some pics used with permission......The picture of the first head that Saskia posted (1913) is one of what I would consider to be a strong profile and quite balanced and more like the heads we saw historically (it's more like the 'working heads' we see today than reminiscent of the show heads)...however, in today's 'show' ring...that head and those ears (appear large and low set from this angle) just wouldn't work...Sad really ? As IMHO, it still resembles a Belgian appropriately--although not as much today's 'winning TYPE'.
I cannot comment on the second pic (1923) which Saskia posted as it appears to be a drawing and not a photo...and every artist has their own interpretation/vision of what they see...
Older Terv--male:
About 18 mos--male:
6-7 Mos--female:
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"Desire is the key to motivation, but it's the determination and commitment to an unrelenting pursuit of your goal - a commitment to excellence - that will enable you to attain the success you seek."
Jenni, no need to get upset (if you are, I can't hear your tone), I just wanted to give my opinion as I know that dog lovers can't always be objective when it comes to their dogs.
No-no, B.! I was not at all upset about that one! That is completely true, and I agree 100%! I also don't understand, why breeders are so hysterical about criticism about their breedings. Laws of nature will hit us breeders hard at some point, no matter how much we know or think we know. And as long as some of us like more Leonardo di Caprio and some Vin Gasolin, (uups Diesel), it is clear, that we have different types. And still we should read the same standard. But I bet that the only thing that is more misinterpreted than our standard (or any other breed standard) is The Bible... ?
J
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Coffee and love are something you just can't warm up again.
Jenni, no need to get upset (if you are, I can't hear your tone), I just wanted to give my opinion as I know that dog lovers can't always be objective when it comes to their dogs.
No-no, B.! I was not at all upset about that one! That is completely true, and I agree 100%! I also don't understand, why breeders are so hysterical about criticism about their breedings. Laws of nature will hit us breeders hard at some point, no matter how much we know or think we know. And as long as some of us like more Leonardo di Caprio and some Vin Gasolin, (uups Diesel), it is clear, that we have different types. And still we should read the same standard. But I bet that the only thing that is more misinterpreted than our standard (or any other breed standard) is The Bible... ?
J
yep, and the standard is a guideline, it isnt "holy" otherwise there would be exact mesurments in it......... but I do think that it is important not only to look at the looks that are given in the standard, but also look at the character as it is decribed in the standard, because then there are also a lot of dogs that arent worth using/who are not living up to the standard.........
Author
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) have different opinion or can point out the problems, please feel free to share.
. 
? As IMHO, it still resembles a Belgian appropriately--although not as much today's 'winning TYPE'.
Diesel), it is clear, that we have different types. And still we should read the same standard. But I bet that the only thing that is more misinterpreted than our standard (or any other breed standard) is The Bible... ?
