There is no stop left in this dog. Parallel lines are not OK (because there is no stop left). In the picture the eye is too light.
I wrote the judging report for the las Belgian specialty and it was a comment that came back time after time.
Saskia
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He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
For some reason my thoughts went to bullterrier from saskias picture... but unfortunately I've seen those bsd's without stop a lot...
What teases me with how the fashion is now is that most belgians (especially tervs) at shows have a "stuped" expression. Some kind of mix between teddybear and "elegant" and the ears tightly together on top of the head, the eyes and maybe lack of stope makes them just look stuped and their eyes are not expressing intelligens, rather stupedness. That's just my opinion and I would be ashamed even taking a walk with a doog that looks like many of the tervs bred today.
Jenni, nice pictures by the way, the ones which show normal bsd.
There is room for workinglines and these others. But more co-operation would lead us more smoothly ahead. When we spend energy fighting against eachother about interpretation of one text, which is also interpretation of one mans interpretation, that turn against us all. More moderate "show"line can be used also in work - rescue, search, forest tracking as Nelli proved in Lithuania, when these working could be in serious work as with police and army.
Jenni, nice pictures by the way, the ones which show normal bsd.
Thanks, H.! For me normal BSD is strong enough for work (as Juppe and Boris were) stubborn enough to finish what they have started and the looks should express intelligence. I saw one tervmale on 1998 WDS with eyes like two mudbonds in october, no expression at all. That terrified me.
And no, I wasn't at show. I was outside doing this with my ballheaded terv:
J
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Hi! I have to ask something.. do you all have permissions to show this photos on the forum? If you don`t please do not post it here, only link to it. Some people might not be happy about using their Photos..
hunden
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More moderate "show"line can be used also in work - rescue, search, forest tracking as Nelli proved in Lithuania, when these working could be in serious work as with police and army.
I don't get what this discussion is all about. But I understands what Jenni wrote above (quote).
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Fanfan might be a great example to show my point here:
However.... honestly .... to me ... : Tervurens nor Groenendaler nor German Shepherds can match with perfect 'golden charachter' of a Malinois ((of course I talk about Malinois with true 'golden character'. )) Fanfan is a lovely dog and does work perfectly as Hearing Dog. He would be great as Police Dog but still for me too soft.
In other words: I don't get this discussion for people like the owner of Fanfan thinks the match between her and Fanfan is perfect. Personally I prefer a real Malinois like Eppo. The match between handler and dog is what counts. As Hearing Dog I have my own Rottweiler. Awesome dog .... no Malinois due to the job. But the match me, falco and his job is perfect. A Malinois can become Hearing Dog. True and I have one in training. But for me a Mal as Hearing Dog is no good match.
To speak with R Kippling: Dogs are at the best no more than verminous vagrants, self-scratchers, foul feeders, and unclean by the law of Moses and Mohammed; but a dog with whom one lives alone for at least six months in the year; a free thing, tied to you so strictly by love that without you he will not stir or exercise; a patient, temperate, humorous, wise soul, who knows your moods before you knows your moods before you know them yourself, is not a dog under any ruling
To get this whole discussion going: keep in mind the match is personal and therefore no need to discuss that.? When we discuss standards only maybe I will be able to understand this discussion and learn some from SHOW PEOPLE.? (I don't know any about show: workability is my limit and look is what is given by God)
so with a lot of topics that had nothing to do with the main issue on this topic, THE HEAD, i think the stop and the head panes have been more or less discussed so i challenge you all to move to the chiselled and dry part of the head. For me the most difficult part to analise on a BSD head, so again lets see some constructive post regarding this subject, please.
hehe, I'm glad that I can spice up your life and make you laugh ?. I do have a great sense of humor - how couldn't I, if someone up there has such an ironic character and obviously likes to rehearse it in my life. It is either being able to accept things in life with humor or die ?. To make your day: my last name is 'Medvedsek' and 'medved' means 'bear' in Slovene, so actually, it's miss Bear Bearings, so to say ?.
But enough of me, we are here to discuss belgians. It's nice to hear you share my point of view on belgians - breeding aims and judging/evaluating the dogs. I'm optimistic I will find THE puppy for me, it's just going to take some work, patience and will. Lucky for me, I have it all ?. I think I know which Hungarian breeder you are refering to - they have some truly beautiful dogs, but after seeing them in real life, I was disappointed and shocked, to say the least. No character, no sparks in eyes and such a movement that poor wooden Pinocchio would seem elegant and smooth. Horrible. I have my hopes on Belgium, perhaps the Netherlands and of course Scandinavia, but this would be quite a project for me... We'll see. If all fails, I'm coming to Portugal to get me a laeken ?.
Regarding the heads... I think that this picture shows a nice groen head. The lines are perhaps not prefectly parallel, but it could be just the hair that makes the forehead seem somewhat round (which in reality is not ? ). Nevermind the crappy position of the hind legs, focus on the head, please:
The following pictures ?present another distinctive feature of the BSD - chiselling and ear setting, which I think are well pronounced in this dog:
The terv in the first picture that Jenni used is one of my favourite examples to show what a belgian should not lack. He will come in handy also in the body part, but here we make comments on the head, so - I think the word 'Yuck' will suffice. Sadly, it seems the trend in show dogs, tervs to be specific, is going in this direction and I hope it stops before it's too late.
I do have one question for Jenni - you said something about the parallels and bite work. Could you please explain what does bite work mean for the development of the head? More muscles, of course, but other than that? (not provoking, really curious!)
And talking about parallels - imagine my astonishment when I saw the picture of this bitch that won CAC on a specialty:
All for now, I'm happy we're making progress ?.
Greetings from Slovenija, Ursa ? and Sambo
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I don't have any pictures to show? but something I also have been thinking of a lot is the masculinity of the males... or rather lack of it...
I had a top winning (at shows) groenendael male who was born somewhere around 1990. I loved his looks (charachter as well but not as a workingdog ) so of course I compare him with the groens I see today and the males are just soooooo non maskuline! "My" groen was maskuline and compared to the groens today much more a "real dog", but he was still very elegant and beautiful. I doubt he would be a top winning dog today, even if he was really handsome both for the eye and at shows at his time.
Think it's sad when the males look so feminine today and the bitches... well... coat with sticks as legs and a non existing head
Feel free to use any/all of these heads for discussion.? Correct, not correction, parallel, not parallel, moderate, to much, whatever.? They are all photos I either own the copyright on, or have permissions to use.? I tried to pick a variety of heads and angles.? #6 and #9 are immature dogs, the rest are adult photos.
What Bambi asked about that parallelism: Eventhough the dogs head might be very parallell, dry and neat, bitework builds up muscles. That way for instance scull looks very round and cheeks pronounced. If judge don't want to or doesn't care to feel the bonestructure, dog might get evaluation "heavy head", eventhough it is only muscles. Also strong muscles make muzzle look pinched.
Flat cheeks, nice chiselure, no muscles that comes with bitework.
Female in front, flat scull, male behind, round, muscled scull after bitework.
Upper pic female is daughter of male in the pic below. And the male is son of the female in the same pic. So the head type comes thru, but can be altered with bitework. There is one reason, that working lined dogs get bad evaluations - not because the heads would really be heavy, but just muscled.
Something like that.
J
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I find that the pic that Jenni posted of THIS Terv is what I would consider moderate in everything w/respect to head...It' s actually a very pleasant looking Terv and doesn't resemble a collie like so many do today.
Definitely not too heavy but definitely not too fragile in that it looks like it's going to break if it bumps into something...The structure is conducive to possible workability.? This is what I consider a moderate 'stop', with a very balanced muzzle to head/skull ratio, not too snipey and not too blunt/heavy, and nice pigmentation....Nice mask...the ears might not be the size or angle that is now in the show ring...don't know for sure due to the angle of the picture...But I feel it's still acceptable.
Jenni, do you have any pics of your Tervs working?
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I value scandinavian tracking very much, because it is really hard, longterm and constant work, which needs stubborness and will to solve problems. Nelli also does some bitework, but not in the competition or real work purpose, just for fun. But yep, we have a joke around my place: Dujoiedevie - and also tervs bite
J
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Author
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!! O my god, never seen it like that..
. I do have a great sense of humor - how couldn't I, if someone up there has such an ironic character and obviously likes to rehearse it in my life. It is either being able to accept things in life with humor or die ?
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but something I also have been thinking of a lot is the masculinity of the males... or rather lack of it...
) so of course I compare him with the groens I see today and the males are just soooooo non maskuline! "My" groen was maskuline and compared to the groens today much more a "real dog", but he was still very elegant and beautiful. I doubt he would be a top winning dog today, even if he was really handsome both for the eye and at shows at his time.
