The head according to the standards that I have found:
1892: The original breed standard
Skull: large, rather flat than rounded Stop: moderate Head: long and pointy Nose: Black Eye: Brown, should make the dog look intelligent Ears: Triangular, stiff, well placed, upright and medium large
The head and neck together are quoted on 9 points out of 50
1909: standard according to the committee for the improvement of the BSD: conformation and work tests
Skull: not too large, rather flat than rounded Stop: moderate Head: long and pointy Nose: Black Eye: Brownish or yellowish, should make the dog look intelligent Ears: Triangular, stiff, well placed, medium large, dogs of whom the ears are not upright are not taken into consideration
The Club du Chien des Berger Belge had the same standard as far as the head is concerned and was published in the magazine: the protection and police dog
1923: The Royal Berger Belge Club
Skull: not too large, rather flat than rounded - a curved head in considered to be a fault Stop: moderate Head: long and pointy Nose: Black Eye: Brown (preferably dark) Ears: Triangular, stiff, placed high, of proportionate length, dogs of whom the ears are not upright are disqualified Jaw: Consits of white and strong teeth, regularly planted, scissor bite (teeth cannot loose contact) - overshoot and undershoot are considered to be a heavy fault
1949
Skull: not too large, rather flat than rounded - a curved head in considered to be a fault Muzzle: medium length, narrowing gradually towards the nose Stop: moderate Head: long and not too heavy Lips: Black and don't show the red mucosa Nose: Black Eye: Brown (preferably dark), lively, intelligent and enquiring look, zygomatic bone is not prominent Ears: Triangular, stiff, placed high, of medium length, well-rounded at the base Teeth: strong scissor bite
1960
The head is well chisseled, long without exageration, the skull and the muzzle are of eaqual length with, at maximum, a slight advantage to the muzzle which gives the dog a finished look
Skull: not too large, in proportion with the length of the head, rather flat than rounded, the frontal groove should not be too pronounced, when viewed in profile the line is parallel with muzzle Stop: moderate Head: long and pointy Muzzle: of medium length, narrowing gradually towards the nose, bridge of the nose is straight, when looked at in profile, it is parallel to the imaginary line which prolongs the skull, mouth well split Lips: Thin, thight and strongly pigmented, don't show the red mucosa Zygomatic bone: should not be prominent, the muzzle should be well chisseled under the eyes Nose: Black, nostrals well opened Eye: medium size, neither protruding nor sunkenslightly almond-shaped, brown and preferably darkbrown, direct, lively, intelligent and enquiring look Ears: Triangular, stiff, well placed, medium large, well rounded at the base Teeth: jaw with white and strong teeth, regularly planted, scissor bite (teeth cannot loose contact) - pincer bite is accepted - overshoot and undershoot are considered to be a heavy fault
1978
Skull: not too large, in proportion with the length of the head, rather flat than rounded, the frontal groove should not be too pronounced, when viewed in profile the line is parallel with muzzle Stop: moderate Head: well chisseled, long without exageration, the skull and the muzzle are of eaqual length with, at maximum, a slight advantage to the muzzle which gives the dog a finished look Muzzle: of medium length, narrowing gradually towards the nose, bridge of the nose is straight, when looked at in profile, it is parallel to the imaginary line which prolongs the skull, mouth well split Lips: Thin, thight and strongly pigmented, don't show the red mucosa Cheek: dry and quite flat, although muscled Zygomatic bone: should not be prominent, the muzzle should be well chisseled under the eyes Nose: Black, nostrals well opened Eye: medium size, neither protruding nor sunkenslightly almond-shaped, brown and preferably darkbrown, direct, lively, intelligent and enquiring look Ears: Triangular, stiff, well placed, medium large, well rounded at the base Teeth: jaw with white and strong teeth, regularly planted, scissor bite (teeth cannot loose contact) - pincer bite is accepted - overshoot and undershoot are considered to be a heavy fault
1989
Skull: not too large, in proportion with the length of the head, rather flat than rounded, the frontal groove should not be too pronounced, when viewed in profile the line is parallel with muzzle Stop: moderate but well marked Head: well chisseled, long without exageration, the skull and the muzzle are of eaqual length with, at maximum, a slight advantage to the muzzle which gives the dog a finished look Muzzle: of medium length, narrowing gradually towards the nose, bridge of the nose is straight, when looked at in profile, it is parallel to the imaginary line which prolongs the skull, mouth well split Lips: Thin, thight and strongly pigmented, don't show the red mucosa Cheek: dry and quite flat, although muscled Zygomatic bone: should not be prominent, the muzzle should be well chisseled under the eyes Nose: Black, nostrals well opened Eye: medium size, neither protruding nor sunkenslightly almond-shaped, brown and preferably darkbrown, direct, lively, intelligent and enquiring look Ears: Triangular, stiff, well placed, medium large, well rounded at the base Teeth: jaw with white and strong teeth, regularly planted, scissor bite (teeth cannot loose contact) - pincer bite is accepted - overshoot and undershoot are considered to be a heavy fault
2001
HEAD: Carried high, long without exaggeration, rectilinear, well chiselled and dry. Skull and muzzle are roughly equal in length, with at the most a very slight bias in favour of the muzzle which puts the finishing touch to the whole head.
CRANIAL REGION: Of medium width, in proportion with the length of the head, with a forehead flat rather than round, frontal groove not very pronounced; in profile, parallel to imaginary line extending muzzle line; occipital crest little developed; brow ridges and zygomatic arches not prominent. Stop: Moderate.
FACIAL REGION:
Nose: Black. Muzzle: Medium length and well chiselled under the eyes; narrowing gradually toward the nose, like an elongated wedge; bridge of the nose straight and parallel to the continuation of the topline of the forehead; mouth well split, which means that when the mouth is open the commissures of the lips are pulled right back, the jaws being well apart. Lips: Thin, tight and strongly pigmented. Jaws/teeth: Strong, white teeth, regularly and strongly set in well-developed jaws. Scissor bite; pincer bite, which is preferred by sheep and livestock herders, is tolerated. Complete dentition according to the dental formula; the absence of two premolars 1 (2 P1) is tolerated and the molars 3 (M3) are not taken into consideration. Cheeks: dry and quite flat, although muscled. Eyes: Medium size, neither protruding nor sunken, slightly almond-shaped, obliquely set, brownish colour, preferably dark; black rimmed eyelids; direct, lively, intelligent and enquiring look. Ears: Rather small, set high, distinctly triangular appearance, well-rounded outer ear, pointed tips, stiff, carried upright and vertical when dog is alert.
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He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
That was rather interesting. The standard didn`t change that much. After reading it all about the head, Im thinking that the standard didn`t change at all, only they wrote something more, that they forgot to mention before? .
hunden
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The truth is out there, but so are the lies. - Dana Scully
If work people (sorry for the generalization) do not give terv/groen owners an equal and fair chance at training BR/KNPV/FR/mondio or any of the other disciplines which are so precious for you. ?Even if you have to adapt the way of training with these dogs, every dog should have the chance to try and should benefit from this. ?In my opinion work people are as much to blame as show people and yes here in Europe we are trying more and more to work with our long-haired varieties but we need help from work people.
In the early days, ?the long haired dogs were not used for protection and police work as much as the malinois because the long coat demanded too much time to maintain and dry.
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Look at your tervs that look like ugly collies. No way they need that much coat. Like the picture of willie, which for all I can tell IS a collie.
Just to educate:
a collie
Willie de la Garde Noire
I don't know
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No way they need that much coat
No way that mali's need to be that big and large. ?The BR program was designed for dogs which measured around 58 cm vs the 65 to even 68 nowadays and they did their job just fine.
Saskia
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He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
>>>>In the early days, long haired dogswere not used for protection and police work as much.......>>.
When I was in college, I wrote several term papers on police service dogs. From my research, I found that the earliest "import" police dogs,(for the purpose of "patrol" or "bite work" )were imported by the New York City Police Department. They brought in 3 dogs in 1906(maybe 1908, can't remember) 1 German Shepherd and 2 GRONENDALS!!
I encourage you to keep trying to work your dogs If I lived near you, I'd work your dog for you. Someday, I'll make it to Europe
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"I have come to see my dogs as a reflection of my willingness to try to improve, as well as an unsparing measure of my frequent failures in doing so."
This line came from an article published in "Chasse et Peche" (very well known magazine prior to the 2nd WW here in Belgium) and "Cultura" (also a magazine from around the time period) and this was the reason given by the Belgian Police for not using long-haired dogs. I know that for example in the Netherlands some long-haired dogs were used and even got a statue for this.
With my next dog I would like to try again in BR. Yentos is now 7 years old so I won't start him again even if he liked it so much. I didn't quit because of hime but because of the people because they disappointed me so much.
But back to heads now.
Saskia
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He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
I know that for example in the Netherlands some long-haired dogs were used and even got a statue for this.
Saskia
Politiehond Albert, 1916 - 1924. Speurhond Albert, een Tervurense herder was de hond van agent J. Water van de Amsterdamse politie. Albert stierf in 1924 en ligt begraven in het Oosterpark. Naar aanleiding van de goede diensten die speurhonden in priv?-bezit van politiemensen bewezen, richtte de politie Amsterdam in 1921 een hondenbrigade op. http://www.politiemuseum.nl/text.php?t_ID=84
But funny enough: when you look at picture to me it is a Malinois. Why in all books and in old KNPV magazines Albert was known as Tervuren I don't know.
__I don't look to say something in this thread.... just bring facts in. __
I need to look at mine because from what i can see he is a terv.
Saskia
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He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
We had a gronendal here in our club that did the work. His owner didn't want to do obedience so he dropped out. I don't care if a dog is furry or not. The pres. of our club had a nice Gren as well and got a Sch3 on her. It was some time ago. We are talking about heads here, and I pointed out two extremely prominent stud dogs that had completely different heads to see what show people thought about it. Not to get Petey's panties in a bunch. I think he has too much "fight drive"
? ? I thought that would be good stuff for discussion, not what it has been taken as. I can't see anyones face here, or hear the tone of their voice. Adding any emotion to what I have written is not of much use with me. I am looking for the answers I don't get from show people, not some childish pissyness from pete. Just answers.
You scroll down and you see a picture of Albert. (on picture you read "Nederlandse Politie Museum") Below you see drawing of Albert doing scent identification.
You call Albert a Terv
If he is a tervuren, then this discussion about standard is worth nothing.
((I focus workability only, the look does follow the dog))
But this is not the pictures I have from Albert that were published in Belgium magazines from around that time.
The dog I see in these picture is indeed a Mali. The pictures I have show a Terv. I will try to look for them.
Saskia
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He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
Rui, very interesting topic! I wish it doesn't turn into another battlefield between pretty people and functional people, hehe. To present my point of view - I'm thinking of getting another groenendael next year and I don't know which way to turn especially because of this kind of thinking - choosing between a working dog and a show dog. If I go to a breeder that has strictly show dogs, then I can probably choose between Fluffy, Puffy, Muffy and Tuffy, dogs with tons of coat and zero character. If I go to a breeder that has working dogs, I will most likely spend the first 15 minutes figuring which ones are dogs and to narrow my choices, which could be shepherds. If I go to a breeder that is neither, then the dogs probably kind of look like nice groens and kind of work like them. That sucks! A BSD isn't Barbie and a BSD isn't Rambo. A belgian is a dog that looks great and works great; of course every person has their priorities - ones emphasize more the looks, others emphasize more the working capabilities. But one thing shouldn't exclude the other! If you want a super fluffy dog, buy yourself a Bichon. If you want to do IPO with a thing that has the best bite power ever, get yourself a hyena. For the BSD is a combination of both, as the standard says - it is a combination of elegance and power, nobility and strength. ?
Belgians are neither just the looks nor the working skills. Theay are a combination of both; a nice dog that looks like a terv, for example, but stands still when you throw a ball in front of him and stays there with a sort of 'Petit mal' absent look isn't a true terv in my opinion; and a dog with excellent performance at IPO that is almost black, has the ear setting of a welsh corgi and the head of a GSD simply isn't a malinois. I believe we should all strive to keep the breed we love as it is supposed to be - with both the looks and the ability to work. Anyway, people have the inclination of defending a theory because they believe they're right, dooooh, so I believe that this should be our goal and that I'm right . To maintain the essence of the breed as it should be, the whole package.
And to comment also on the remark about the standard - if you have ever read the standard of the belgians, you probably saw that there is a lot of descriptions about their temperament, way of behaving and moving; also the standard is far from being just a list of things one should look for to evaluate a dog from a showing point of view; in it it is stated how angulated a BSD should be, how the body is constructed etc etc. This all applies to the functionality of such a dog - what this means for the working capabilities. And isn't this what matters most? Having a good looking dog with the correct physical features that enable him to excell at work? To be precise - having a true Belgian Shepherd Dog?
Take care, Ursa & Sambo - B & B (stands for Brains & Beauty, both applying to Sambo and none to me )
ps: I hope we have all overcome the dispute between looks and work and can from now on debate about the standard, features of the BSD and what does a specific characteristic of the belgian's anatomy perhaps mean for their functionality; this is an interesting topic and it would be a shame to spoil it.
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''If sometimes you feel a little useless, offended and depressed, always remember that you were once the fastest and victorious sperm in your group.''
Dear Ursa ( and i do have to say this, your nick name is Bambi and in portuguese Ursa means bear so i can not stop laughing your are very animalish !!!!!)
Thank you for your works , very well said. Regarding thechoosing a dog i am sure that you can find a Groenendael that looks like a Bs an d has working ability, you just have to look and look. I know in sweden they have breeders of Groenedaels that work anbd also go to shows, and also you have one in Hungary,m this is what i hear as my bussiness are the Laekenois.
I would also like to hear your opinion about the head and if you have pic of groenendaels that youy think have heads according to the standard.
I feel a bit sorry, that collie has more stop than BSD.
In the standard it says "moderate stop" and that muzzle can be a bit longer than scull. I am no mathematical genious (or any other g... ) but something really shows up in these pic. Or maybe someone can say that pics are taken in such angle that it only looks odd...
What I consider moderate. Also those original pics in the very beginning are moderate, and much better parallel, than this, but this is what happens after 3 years of bitework.
I could take here pics of for instance G'Bibber, and also he is more on moderate side than not-at-all-side as the newest type of heads.
Also this should be read with a newsreader-tone. If someones thinking if I am pissed off or not. I am not, because I really don't want to have anything to do with collieheaded version of BSD. And what I don't have, breed or own is not too much my concern.
But as long as the type and heads and teeth are judged by human eye and human opinions, contacts and interests, as long it can not be considered objective evaluation.
And oh, about teeth... that has changed a lot. PM3's can drop off now just like that. I'd be worried, if that starts to pop out in my lines. But still it is not considered in the newest standard anymore. When I jumped in, we accepted only 2 P1's to be missing. What has happened after that?
J
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Coffee and love are something you just can't warm up again.
the head of the first tervueren is to much refined, exactly what is now happening, and that you see a lot at the french special, in my opinion unfortunatly.
the head of the second tervueren is too less, althought i must say i perfer the second to the first, evne thought nonoe of them , in my opinion is according to the standard.
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If I lived near you, I'd work your dog for you. Someday, I'll make it to Europe 
. To maintain the essence of the breed as it should be, the whole package. 
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