The standard, considered to be the bible when it comes to analise the morphology of the belgian shepherd dog.
As it has been discussed several times and in several foruns diferente people have diferente interpretations, well i thought why not try to get to an agreement, being so i cast a chalenge in this forum. Every week we should analise one part of the standard and give our ideas on it, and most importante of all with pic. what i mean is, i write my thought on the part of the standard of that week and i suply a photo of a dog to show what i mean. PLEASE so not identify the dog, this is not to discuss if the X dog has this or that part good or bad, it is to analise the standard.
it would also be interesting to have pic of the 4 varieties.
I hope you all participate, and that in the end we could ilustrate the standard with pic.
So lets stat. This week topic is the head.
the standard says:
HEAD: Carried high, long without exaggeration, rectilinear, well chiselled and dry. Skull and muzzle are roughly equal in length, with at the most a very slight bias in favour of the muzzle which puts the finishing touch to the whole head.
HEAD: Carried high, long without exaggeration, rectilinear, well chiselled and dry. Skull and muzzle are roughly equal in length, with at the most a very slight bias in favour of the muzzle which puts the finishing touch to the whole head.
One of the most dificult things to see and analise on the head of the belgium shepherd, but that it is one of the most important and that gives it the distinctive from other shepherds heads, is the Chiselled.
in my opinion we should not fall on the mistake of having long and narrow heads, (collie type) because the head most be chiselled and that means that should be filled with tendons and muscles that give the chiselled impression. The standard say long without exageration. . The Zygomatic arch should not be pronounced
Please fell free to write critics on the heads presented, as i said on the first post this is not about the dogs, it is about the Belgian Shepherd, so noone should be offended by the critisisms of the pic presented
So when you see a picture of G'Bibber, with his longer muzzle........ Is the standard really the most important thing? I say this because he is a dominant stud dog. Then there is the head of Elgos, another dominant stud dog. he had almost no stop. working ability is what you are breeding for in a Malinois. Anything else should probably be confined to GSD's, or Maltese. (those are very cute.)
I have never looked at show standard stuff ever, but why not? Standard wording descriptions are vary vague and open to interpretation(in my opinion). I have a bit of a problem with "the skull and muzzle are roughly the same length." I like the muzzle to be a little longer than the skull, but does that mean the same as "roughly?"
I like the head on the Laeken better as well. Just the opinion from a working dog guy
Christian
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"I have come to see my dogs as a reflection of my willingness to try to improve, as well as an unsparing measure of my frequent failures in doing so."
Before we start to have a discussion about standard, we should define, why the standard was made, and what it served originally.
Like those two heads (profiles) are pretty good. What about straight in front? And what happens to those heads, when they start to do bitework and muscles develop making the head more round?
I've had a female with "perfect" head, as they said and also when taking the measurements of it it was just how it says in the interpretation of R. Pollet. And then in shows - should have more noble head. Winner was collieheaded.
When the head is bred too light and noble there is not enough room for muscles to attach. Amount of stop, eventhough refined one, should make the basis of the size of the scull - the surface for ligaments and muscles to attach.
On the other hand BSD is fast and fiery dog, that means it can not and should not be too heavy, that makes it slower. If the head is too heavy, it reflects the whole conformation of the dog. Also when talking about breedstandards, the most important characteristic is type. Type doesn't mean looks, but the breedtype, the thing that makes difference between DS, BSD and GSD.
In France it was said that if the dogs head is perfect, nothing else matters. Where did it lead us?
J
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Funny.. people disagree mostly on head..you could have picked any other part of the body there would be almoust no debate but heads are something else..
If we agree or disagree with way heads of belgian developed this is the way they are now. With conformation idea of the head it is more or less like this: If your dog has (to use Jenni?s words) Colliehead than you like that and will protect it.. if your dog had wider (usually) bigger head you like that and will protect that idea.
With working dogs totaly other story.. god forbid "colliehead", here i found people start to think the bigger the better.. if colliehead at tervs than at least GSD headed at mals.. now the biggest question of history comes up was really collie mixed into tervs and was really GSD mixed into mals - can anyone confirm this or are this those REAL myths (I will drop the one with great danes)? That would explain heads a lot..
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When the head is bred too light and noble there is not enough room for muscles to attach. Amount of stop, eventhough refined one, should make the basis of the size of the scull - the surface for ligaments and muscles to attach.
Hm, makes me think.. Can someone who is a vet or dog body expert confirm that or is it one of the myths? What would happen if head would be too wide? I have found that when it comes to belgian shepherds there is always 5 truths about the same thing..
I go to shows. Why are the standards changed so much since Willy de la Garde Noire and this:
Eventhough I breed showlined dogs, the pic above is something I never would like to see in my breedings.
And about the room for muscles to attach? Well I don't think that it is a myth that on 5 squarecentimeters there is a bit more room than in 2 cm2 ? Of course, because we are all idealistics on our own ideas and defend them the same fire that BSD should defend it's own, there will never be any consensus between our thoughts.
J
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>>well i thought why not try to get to an agreement, being so i cast a chalenge in this forum.........in favour of the muzzle which puts the finishing touch to the whole head.<<
***The ONLY challenge is...CAN the dog work??...if it can and it does well...then it's 'type' is correct...NO?? The BSD's 'hallmark' is not its head or it's body...It is its WORKABILITY....This is WHY there is a 'split' between conformation people and working people IMHO.
B
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"Desire is the key to motivation, but it's the determination and commitment to an unrelenting pursuit of your goal - a commitment to excellence - that will enable you to attain the success you seek."
Hmmm. Actually conformation is the thing that makes dog able to work.
Too long back with that speed and collisionforces causes injuries (just go that IPO-thread to see... ) also the speed in turns suffers from too loose elbows and wrong angulations. You can not breed only the mind of the dog and strength between the ears. The comformation is the vessel thru what that mind works. Like in Finland we have several good dogs. But the list of backproblems rises up questions.
It is really nice to have fresh, cool water in the desert. But too bad if the bottle is broken. And stupid, if you break it yourself just to prove you are right.
J
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Coffee and love are something you just can't warm up again.
Hmmm. Actually conformation is the thing that makes dog able to work.
J
Not sure who you were replying to ....BUT the VAST majority of conformation dogs don't even know what WORK is...They get the Ch's..but have NEVER done one minute of work to PROVE their WORKING structure is correct....
I have YET to have a Belgain with neck or back problems...However, the conformation champions I am seeing have too long a neck and too snipey a muzzle...Both are weaknesses in the working world...Obviously WORKING conformation and SHOW conformation are very different...
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"Desire is the key to motivation, but it's the determination and commitment to an unrelenting pursuit of your goal - a commitment to excellence - that will enable you to attain the success you seek."
the conformation champions I am seeing have too long a neck and too snipey a muzzle...Both are weaknesses in the working world...Obviously WORKING conformation and SHOW conformation are very different...
They seem to be and still our standard gives only one conformation.
Willy, I always return on this one. (As a tervist, of course )
But that dog has real head, good back, good angulations. And eventhough I had my best succes with Nelli in shows, I can clearly see, how judges closed their eyes from her faults: flat head, weak front and sloping croup. Of course I think she is the prettiest there is, when I wear my pink sunglasses. And there is lot of good in her too. Still that Willy above is the goal for the type to me. On the other hand Nelli is carrying the characteristics of her sire. Inside the head and heart. That courage, will to work and will to please.
For real work these lines are still not, what police and other K9 units need is not the excact parallel lines in the head, which will disappear anyway with bitwork after muscles come. But also working people should maintain the basic type in conformation, because the breed standard talks about the speed and strenght of BSD, and conformation according to that. The strenght of BSD is the speed, the vivid elements of its work. if it is build like an elephant (and I am not referring the ears! ) it can not work according the character and temperamenttype described in standard. Like sarplaninac would have enough strenght and size to throw middlesize decoy orbit the moon, we still like to have BSD to do that with the speed and strenght raising from that.
When talking about looks of the dog and standard of the breed, we should always make difference between good looks and good type. And still we should value also all the people amongst this marvellous race so that the path someone else chooses, might be just as right for them as my path is to me.
But yep, it is hard. Innocent should throw the first stone. And please, don't aim too well...
J
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Willy is ofcourse looking great, except the back legs, he is standing like a cow on that picture (like Raider did only a few months ago). The legs should be in a parallel position?
hunden
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The truth is out there, but so are the lies. - Dana Scully
Author
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Nose just a little bit longer then the rest of the head , but Im no expert.. 
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