IMO in all championship, sleeve should be hard trial sleeve and sleeve cover should be new one for every dog that comes on the field This has nothing to do with helper work, be rather the comfort level of the dog on the grip
What ou refer to malndobe is that in IPO/VPG in Germany i know a few helpers how work with soft arms . They arms that they use is the Gappay soft 110 or The Frabo number 7 or the ebinger 103 these arms are a bit softer than a hard arm and the dog good set a good grip. Maybe this is just an idea that the boards from different countries say that on national champioships and World championships the decoy's must use the sleeves and no other sleeve that is harder or softer.
Sorry, but your wrong!!! This should not make a different on the helper and in the way the helper is doing his job. If the helper is good, hard or soft sleeve it makes no different. But it will make a different for those dogs that have never been on hard sleeve, or have problems bitting down on harder sleeve then it is use to.
i think they are just for comfort of decoy and no benefit whatsoever to dogs. Bite bar this whedge there and all mumbo jumbo... i mean if dog can't bite that kind of sleeve full mouth than it is really crap dog.
Sorry, but your wrong!!! This should not make a different on the helper and in the way the helper is doing his job. If the helper is good, hard or soft sleeve it makes no different. But it will make a different for those dogs that have never been on hard sleeve, or have problems bitting down on harder sleeve then it is use to.
i think they are just for comfort of decoy and no benefit whatsoever to dogs. Bite bar this whedge there and all mumbo jumbo... i mean if dog can't bite that kind of sleeve full mouth than it is really crap dog.
True, but what are benefits of flat bite bar to dog? Or hard sleeve? What does it prove in dogs character?
Quote:or have problems bitting down on harder sleeve then it is use to.?
Since the ultimate goal is "supposed" to be the protection of the handler, why is harder of any concern at all? Humans are soft.
I think what Ivan was talking about is on the suit, some dogs look for the arm or leg, constantly driving in to grab you. This is one of my problems with Sch or IPO in general. So much of the training concerns the calm grip. It is not hectic just because the dog keeps trying to fill his mouth. Another reason in the shape of the sleeve. Perfectly designed so the dog can hold on with his back teeth with out much effort. Would it be that big a deal to change the shape to something round? If a dog were to push in to the helper on a drive, he would be penalized. It wouldn't be calm.
One of the things about working a dog on a suit is that you really get a feel for who the dog is, and a lot better than on a sleeve. When a dog is working hard to grab you under the fabric, as opposed to a dog that grabs the suit and hangs on.................... I think you get my meaning.
Would it be that bad to put a big round soft sleeve on a decoy in Sch or IPO?? I bet some of the dogs would like to find the helpers arm!!!!
This is one of my problems with Sch or IPO in general. So much of the training concerns the calm grip. It is not hectic just because the dog keeps trying to fill his mouth. Another reason in the shape of the sleeve. Perfectly designed so the dog can hold on with his back teeth with out much effort. Would it be that big a deal to change the shape to something round? If a dog were to push in to the helper on a drive, he would be penalized. It wouldn't be calm.
I thought dogs were allowed to re-grip in sch ipo to fill thier mouth?
I type for sh#t. In ring you have dogs that are trying to "find" your leg or arm and do harm to them. I have seen this drive Sch people nuts. They don't always get the dog is trying to hurt the guy. The other is that the decoy isn't gonna let dogs fill it, so you see a lot of dogs moving in alot. It doesn't have the shape of the sleeve to help them. Go check out a ring club if you can, If you have a strong dog to observe you will see that they really are trying to hurt you. This way you can see that the dog trys to bite in as much as he can, so it looks like he is rebiting a lot.
>>Would it be that bad to put a big round soft sleeve on a decoy in Sch or IPO?? I bet some of the dogs would like to find the helpers arm!!!!
***Absolutely Jeff...and we do it intentionally...It's a great supplement to the........... hmmm....'traditional/standard' IPO training!? We also do hidden sleeve and muzzle work too!? Yeah...I know...it's the price we pay for having a Ring foundation! LOL?
http://www.fd-malinois.com/Qain/index.htm --check out the videos....This boy's foundation was on jambiere's, belgian sleeves, and will advance to more suitwork, hidden sleeve, and muzzle work...And he started his IPO at 8 weeks at strictly an IPO club,? and it's THE program he'll be titled in....
There is a BIG difference between Ring decoys and IPO helpers...The latter wouldn't dare get a bruise...Let's face it..Ring work can HURT lol....It's a good thing my "better 'ring' half" doesn't give a crap and is in it for the dogs! lol
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"Desire is the key to motivation, but it's the determination and commitment to an unrelenting pursuit of your goal - a commitment to excellence - that will enable you to attain the success you seek."
The meaning from this topic is still is IPO healthy for the dog? And not what kind off sleeve the helper must use. Iff the helper is that bad and can't controle him self on the long atack with hard hitting dogs the sleeve is nothing to talk about. The sleeve isn't the problem that the dog got jamned the helper did this. Now, my question or sugestion isn't really been anwserd how can we as handlers help or teach decoy's to learn how to read the dog. I mean by this for example Iff i do this as a decoy how is the dog going to react witch way is he comming and not what i have seen o the dog comes either way this is going good or bad the dog is going on the left side. The same goes for ring. How can we help to make the decoy's better?
I don't know that one can teach 'reading a dog' in the classical sense--because there are many, that no matter how long they've been into 'training'...will NEVER be able to 'read' a dog...I think there are many variables that determine and/or influence a 'positive result'...
I think that one issue is the ability for clubs/decoys/handlers to train OUTSIDE the box...Too many are 'stuck' in pattern training, and training their dogs according 'to the way things have always been done'...This limits their 'creativity', intuition, and being able to begin actually 'reading' the dog...Stepping outside that 'box' will actually help to create not only better dogs...but better training and trial helpers...When they can read and judge a dog's style...They will be also providing a 'safer' catch/work...Too many train according the book they have read...What they're missing is the fact that the DOGS they are working haven't read that 'book'...
I think another issue is that 99% of the helpers HERE, are SV helpers and most haven't worked on anything BUT a GSD...and a few if lucky have worked on Rotties...Well there is NO comparison in how a Malinois engages and with what speed he does all the work...and the other two breeds...So experience in working various breeds is also necessary...Each was bred for a different purpose and different traits (inner and outer) have been emphasized..This means that each will react in a different manner as well as behavior...Each will have its own style...A good helper should be able to read and work safely a Malinois, Dobermann, GSD, Rottie etc...
Here, I think is also a lack of 'certification' or standards for helpers...There really is no criteria...
I also think ALL helpers should have experience working a pup/young dog and progressing with the pup's training from beginning to end...There is so much more involved in reading a young dog or pup as compared to reading a dog that knows all the pattern exercises and is simply going through the motions...
I also think that EGO has no place in dog training...and it doesn't matter what program we're talking about...This trait is abundant and very common...
There are helpers who are good as TRAINING helpers; and those who are considered to be good TRIAL helpers...There seems to be a division between the two...I personally don't think that anyone should be a Trial helper if they haven't achieved anything as a Training helper...The training is what helps those with a predisposition for it; to READ dogs and apply the correct/necessary actions....If a 'trial' helper lacks this type of experience/ability...it's unlikely that he will or can provide the safety needed for your dog when it's trialing...
Anyways, just some thoughts...
B
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"Desire is the key to motivation, but it's the determination and commitment to an unrelenting pursuit of your goal - a commitment to excellence - that will enable you to attain the success you seek."
1) part of dog training is inate. Some of it you just can't teach. You can't really teach timing or reading a dog. You can show people and explain it but part of it just boils down to "getting it" and some people just can't get it. But you should be able to teach a decoy to read which side the dog is comming. And if someone has athletic ability and a sense of timing, they can learn how to catch a dog safely.
2) Pattern training and "always doing the same thing" limits not onlhy dogs but decoys. I gave an example of myself earlier. I have been working mostly with police/ KNPV/PSA dogs that are all pretty much taught to bite the upper inside of the left arm. Well if you are catching the same dogs the same way for years, you are going to get "conditioned" just like the dog. Borrowing from different diciplines and thinking "outside the box" is benificial to trainers, dogs, AND decoys.
3) Training decoy and trail decoy is a big difference. But I disagree in that you can be a good trial decoy and not really have to be a training decoy. If you can do both; of course that only makes you better but you can be a good trial decoy with athetic ability, timing, and instruction with various dogs and various scenarios.
4) There should absolutly be a decoy selection, certification, and training program for every sport. The sports governing body should have rules for the decoy; promote decoy "training camps", and require decoys to perform in a minimum amount of trials and re-certify every year or so. I think most sports and I know French ring does and even our new "american sport" PSA does this but from what I understand IPO and Shutzhund does not.
My two cents on the subject,
Christian
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Anyone fairly athletic can go through the motions. There is a shortage of good helpers, so the mentality seems to be, "well at least he wants to do it". There is a huge difference between the trial decoys and the training decoys. I am currently experiencing this. My dog is going to heck, because the decoy cannot read the dog, and does nothing to improve the dog. He blames it all on everything but his work. This mentality in general is something I see. The really good training decoys, are never heard of, and rarely seen. I also see people look at the certification as some sort of approval to train. This is very far from the truth. This is what needs to be fixed, but it has to be balanced out with the need for people to do the work. (This is why Mals shouldn't do sch or IPO )
The really good training decoys, are never heard of, and rarely seen.
That is, ofcourse, because they will only work dogs that have true fight drive.
What could handler do to make helper better? Try talking what you wan't and what you don't like. Better know your stuff because that is gonna be long talk most of the time. This is ego stuff again...
Other than that you really can not do anything - and as helpers are really few and far inbetween you don't want to chase only one you might have away.
Having worked dogs in both the suit and sleeve it is my opinion that it is harder to correctly catch a strong fast dog on the sleeve.? The hardest thing to do is to wait for the dog to commit before you move.? It is almost a simultaneous thing.? Too many times I see decoys try to guess where they think the dog will go and as long as they guess right they look good.? But every so often they have a real bad jam because they tried to? turn the dog the wrong way.? I know many dogs don't want you to swing them and as a result if you move first they will go the other way.? The first catch you are able to take them the way you want but the second time the dog will not allow you to do it the same.? It takes watching a decoy do several repetitions with several different dogs to know how good they really are.? I personally have not seen very many truly good decoys.? Most parts of decoying can be taught but some finer points are instinctive and just have to be there naturally.?
"I also see people look at the certification as some sort of approval to train. This is very far from the truth." ? ?Well then Jeff, may I have your approval to train? ? "There is a huge difference between the trial decoys and the training decoys." ? ?So what are you suggesting? ?That I'm a poor trial decoy or a poor training decoy. ?Not every trial helper is an idiot that doesn't know the diff. between a trial and training. ?The difference is not in the individual, but in their jobs "My dog is going to heck, because the decoy cannot read the dog, and does nothing to improve the dog. He blames it all on everything but his work." ? ?Why do you let someone who's work you don't approve of get in front of your dog? ?Especially when you have made it clear that you are a very good decoy yourself. ? ?
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This has nothing to do with helper work, be rather the comfort level of the dog on the grip 
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? I bet some of the dogs would like to find the helpers arm!!!!
