I have seen many trials in IPO in holland and some in Germany and some in Belgium. But what i see more and more is that there are helpers that can not handle fast dogs at the long attack. What happens the are going to be jamned or jump by because the helper is frightend. In the first case is when the dog gets jamned is that his hole body gets a real shock and it is not good . With this dog i was friday morning at the vet because he could not walk here name is Alpha du Sauvage du Chausseur owner Kim Hechler a good friend off mine it happend at the FCI W.Ch. in Breda.. I 've got many pictures more from other helpers who jamned dogs. It is not beautifull to see. The helper at the long attack he jamned old Igor Perle de Tourbiere. They trained 3 weeks before the W.CH. with another in the stadium. When you train so long with another you must know the dog inside out. LOOK at the neck from this dog. I think that helpers need some kind off course. What they do wrong or wright. Not allways patting on there back your great and etc. My meaning is when you are the helper at the second part in IPO, you must "read"the dog what is he going to do, witch side is he going and not try to say ooh dog you are comming on the right side but I as helper i take you on the left side. This happend to my dog three times now and was jamned very hard so hard that he couldn't walk normally for a week and now he is done for the sport he is only 5 years old. He has got a hernia in the beginning off his neck . I think that we must select the helpers really good for big or small trails
This is fairly simple to solve. Stop using Mals for IPO. It serves no purpose, and is NOT toff:)a good test for the breed. Stick with the shepherds. This sport has denigrated the GSD to a pathetic watered down version. Look how they have to find a "new" country to get GSD's from every few years. Lets hope this does not happen to the Mals. IPO and SCh were only temperament tests for GSDs, not something to be an over-trained sport as it is today.
This is fairly simple to solve. Stop using Mals for IPO.
Unfortunately I see this kind of catch in the other sports also on a regular basis. There are plenty of photos and video of dogs being jammed like this in Ring, PSA, etc. also.
We had a young dog out at the club awhile ago that was a speed demon. SUPER fast. The trainer made the comment that he was going to have to "break" the dogs entry soon, ie slow the dog down, because otherwise he'd be seriously injured or killed eventually from a bad catch. I have to agree, especially in Ring where the target is not a "gimmee" from the decoys point of view, the dog could be going for either leg, stomache, shoulder, etc. Although even with a slower entry, that's still going to be one FAST dog.
Touchy subject because we have to have decoys or no sport! Most of my experience is with suit. Because of this, I do get nervous when I have a fast, hard hitter and I am wearing a sleeve. My greatest fear as a decoy is to seriously hurt a dog. I have never certified as a trail decoy but have been a training decoy for Ring, PSA, and Police service dogs for many years.
This is fairly simple to solve. Stop using Mals for IPO. .
This is just silly, and serves no purpose. You are disrespecting not only a breed of dog, but an entire dog sport!? This helps how?
I agree with Bjorn that our respective sports must have some rules regarding decoy certification and continued training. I know in the US, Ring Sport is pretty good about this and PSA just implimented a decoy certification and requires a certain number of trials a year. I don't know about international IPO but from what I hear about Shutzhund in the USA is a bunch of decoys just show up and the judge decides who he wants to work a trial. No certification or anything. I may be wrong(Bjorn maybe you can confirm or deny this for me) but that is how it was explained to me. If that is the case, no wonder dogs get hurt!
The other problem with this subject is decoys often get blamed for an injury that is really due to poor training or a weak dog. Teaching technique seems to be a lost art. I have seen way too many dogs with sloppy entries, poor targeting, lack of grip development, or weak nerves.
Always two sides to every arguement.
The fear of hurting someone's dog is in the back of my mind every time I suit up. Bjorn, I am sorry about what happened to your dog and your friends dog as well.
Christian
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"I have come to see my dogs as a reflection of my willingness to try to improve, as well as an unsparing measure of my frequent failures in doing so."
Quote:This is just silly, and serves no purpose. You are disrespecting not only a breed of dog, but an entire dog sport! This helps how?
Look at the sport, look how the GSD has gone downhill, we use the sport to judge the dog. Now tell me in your opinion what does the IPO program offer the Mal? What does this test in a Mal that the french or begian, or even the dutch program doesn't cover and surpass.
As far as bad catches from decoys, well I have seen a few decoys from psa that needed to loose about 50-60 pounds. I see a decoy like that I would scratch myself and go home. There are minimum standards for decoys that have to be met.
anybody can see from these pictures that those situations are not healthy for the dog. But this must also be the case for the other disciplines like KNPV, Belgian Ring etc and not only in IPO.
I was alway under the impression from my time with Yentos training in BR that in Belgium you need a license to act as decoy in competition (at least in SH). So there should be some standards to competition decoys. Isn't this the case in any of the other countries?
Saskia
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He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
As i said this hasn't got to do with Belgian shepperd or other breeds. Or discredet IPO sport. It has to do with helpers that can not handle fast dogs. And i want to here your opinion. . This happend at the Bundes Sieger prufung this year. You see that the dog wants to go on the right side but the helper would him rather on the left side what happens... BANG. I think many helpers must learn like football players to use both sides not only one side. As i said I was this year at the FCI W.Ch. The helper that did the second part haf problems with dogs that came fast and low. There where 5 or 6 dogs that he jumped past him because he was the early gone with the sleeve. the judge said fue to a helper failure the dog get's his points. Now this actions can be prevented when helpers are carefully monitored and teached how to react and what to do in some situations. In KNPV it is a totally different story than in ring or IPO. The dogs in KNPV expect that they are going to be jamned. But not ring or IPO dogs
Please educate me. In IPO, do decoys have to go through a certification process? My understanding is they do not.? In any sport when you reach the highest levels of competition you should have the best judges, helpers, etc. The dog and handler team have to earn the right to compete at this level do they not? Well. then the judges and decoys need to prove they are the best as well!!
You are absolutly correct about the decoy being able to go both ways. I was taught this in ring sport. Then I went to Police dogs (KNPV) and almopst every dog goes ti the left upper arm. Decoys can get conditioned to "go to the left" just like dogs. I recently jammed a dog pretty good doing exactly as you say. Dog went right ;I tried to go left. So I decided I am going to go work with some ring sport guys to get used to going both ways. ( I don't want to make this sport is better thatn that, just that most KNPV/Police dogs go high and to the left.) If you are goin to learn how to go both ways you need dogs that will do the same.
Anyway, I agree with you totally that decoys need to be coached correctly and should have to demonstrate their abilities to match the level of competition they are working.
? ? ? ? Christian
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"I have come to see my dogs as a reflection of my willingness to try to improve, as well as an unsparing measure of my frequent failures in doing so."
I think with any sport, the athlete assumes a risk of injury. i know that schutzhund usa is starting a certified helper program, i went to a WDA helper cert last week, this sport is relatively new in the states less than 50 years old. i think it is a work in progress. It does have a long way to go. but is it the sports fault? no. the sport has risks. dogs can hurt in a ring sport also, is that the sport faults? no. it comes with the territory. and bottom line is i am responsible for my dog well being. if i want to call myself his handler, owner, demand his respect, demand him to obey, ask him to protect me from the bad guy, ask him to look for things because my olfactory sense is inferior. the least i could be is a good friend , and make sure i am not sending my dog out on the field with some yahoo, who is afraid and incompetent. it is not the decoys fault, it's mine. i sure would take responsibilty for it, if the dog just worked the decoy over and looked like one of the most powerful dog in the world.
I yesterday read the results of the championship for decoys here in Belgium and the youngest decoy was the youngst ever to participate. He is 15 years old. I am not judging his quality because I don't know that but it seems strange to have have a decoy half my age?
Saskia
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He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
Maybe the titel is wrong. Maybe i should have named it are there any good decoy's left. And yes there are in Holland certified helpers but, they have to do anything? iff they fall down on there face while working they still get ther certificed. In belgium it is easyer because you to a course and after a while there is an exam when you pas you are a cerified helper for life. I think it will be a good thing when there will be a seppered commision that select the decoys and not the judge that knows the decoy's and is going to judge the trail. These day's the selections has nothing to do with what the decoy can do but all politics this decoy is a friend off the president from that club, the other one trains at the club from a wellknown judge, the other one is friend from an other wellknown judge and that makes the sport go down. . This man he came from the USA and he was the decoy ath the DHV Championships in Germany these are only ten pictures but beleave me he done this with a lot more dogs. A woman wrote in this same magazine i quote" This type off work isn't so bad, the dogs learn here that they must be harder." Iff people think the same way they are idiots ,really. Allso this decoy could do his so cold performance due to politics. This type off playing decoy has nothing to do with the sport. This has to do with how can i break a dog. A friend off mine was a participent at this trail his dog couldn't walk for over a week. My meaning is when a decoy shows this kind off work the judge must react and take the decoy his certificed away.
A woman wrote in this same magazine i quote" This type off work isn't so bad, the dogs learn here that they must be harder." Iff people think the same way they are idiots ,really. Allso this decoy could do his so cold performance due to politics. This type off playing decoy has nothing to do with the sport. This has to do with how can i break a dog. A friend off mine was a participent at this trail his dog couldn't walk for over a week. My meaning is when a decoy shows this kind off work the judge must react and take the decoy his certificed away.
I agree with you 100%
Christian
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"I have come to see my dogs as a reflection of my willingness to try to improve, as well as an unsparing measure of my frequent failures in doing so."
I don't think KNPV dogs 'expect' to be jammed. It looks that way but there is much more absorption when dog is on armpit target on front bite than what happens when IPO decoy goest to the wrong side - THAT is a wall and bad news for dogs neck.
In IPO target is in front of your center mass and you have to spin or you jamm the dog. In knpv target is off center and dog will spin you (not much if you are not all green, but enough to absorbe some impact). That is why targeting is important IMO. Safety. For both dog and decoy.
I have been there and done that myself, and what you said here is SO TRUE!!! It is a buddy,buddy system in that it's not how good you are but who you know
These day's the selections has nothing to do with what the decoy can do but all politics this decoy is a friend off the president from that club, the other one trains at the club from a wellknown judge, the other one is friend from an other wellknown judge and that makes the sport go down.
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This helps how?
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