Under hot topics : "did he go to far?" you can watch a video about a trainings sesion. I think, as most people who reacted, this is a video made espacially to shock people but the video did inspire me to ask you all how you feel about dominant behaviour. In the video you see a man who puts his dog down on the ground trying to be dominant over the dog. The dog gets up the man puts him down again etc. I think putting a dog down on his back is not seen as a correction by a dog. I allso think dominance is allways an relation thing, the one being dominant over me can be submitive towards someone else. So a dog can show dominant behaviour amongst other dogs but this does not make him a dominant dog towards people. Shaking a dog can couse a dog to react with aggression. Putting a dog down on his back can allso couse agression ore a dog that does not trust his owner anymore. Not trusting your owner makes a dog react with aggression even soner. I think a lot of behaviour problems start of with people attempting to be dominant over there dogs in a way dogs do not understand. Our breed is learns fast, loves to get attention do we need to dominate them? For the dutch people among us there is a site witch writes about this topic. You can also find links towards english sites.
Well, I try to always go back to the wolves to identify dominant and submissive behaviour, and watching two wolves or dogs of the same gender having a conflict, a lot of the time the submissive dog will turn its belly up to "prove it" (stomach=killing zone). At other times though the loser will just hunch down and put his/her tail between the legs, possibly also licking the dominant's mouth. I'm far from experienced enough to know and be able to tell the extremely subtle differences, but I have used the putting the dog on its back to establish dominance with all my dogs and it has worked fine, but there are some important things to remember IMO - if you put a dog on its back you have to a)have a reason to, a reason the dog acknowledges as well, and b)you need to BE dominant, not just perform the action of dominance. This is what I reacted to in the video you speak of, that the handler performed the action but wasn't dominant in his body language and signals. If I put a dog on its back I will be aggressive, in their face, with all my being, turning them upside down without enforcing it will just eventually make the dog not care or get aggressive right back. I've always made the dog lie there without moving, if it moves I'll grab the scruff of the neck and pull it right down again. In an extreme case I leaned over the dog and grabbed his neck with my teeth, growling. It worked fine but as always with the belgian breeds some are pretty gentle so you don't want to do this if it's not absolutely necessary. In summary I think it's a way better way to deal with dominance problems than yanking on the leash saying "no" umpteen times. The dog HAS to recognise your dominance, but it's not always necessary to do this.
I think that if you have a good realetion with your dog you do not need to expres dominance in this way. It might be neccessary with a young puppy learning not to go against people but I never used it on a grown dog. Once saw someone who tried to put a Rottweiler down like this and it did not work. Wolves ownly use this way of correcting in a dominance conflict situation and most agression is seen between the lower members of the pack. The Alpha male and female use there calm confident behaviour to show their dominance, they have nothing to gain with fighting since they might get wounded. Agression goes down and the omega is the one who functions as a punchball in wolfpacks created by human ore in captivety. Resent studies show a different picture in famely packs living in the wild. Can it be that we had it wrong all the time? Is it possible that our dogs do not understand us and start seeing us as a unreliable "Alpha"? Is it not the task of the leader to make sure the pack survives and is able to hunt? Can it be that reacting with aggression gives agression in the same way it does with people? I am currious about your oppinions.
Yentos is a dominant male but I never did this once to him and I do not need to. He perfectly knows where his place is. People sometimes think I control him too much but this is not bossing him around but setting clear boundries for him. These boundries do not change depending on my mood. He knows he can trust me under any circumstance. He has no problem with me being the alpha dog. My sisters' behaviour changes depending her mood and this confuses him terribly as he is not sure how he has to behave and this results in sometimes in growling as she is not dependable enough for him. This behaviour changes again when I enter the room.
But explaining to people how dominance works is a very difficult issue. I tried it time and time again in puppyschool but they then do it for a few weeks but then rules start to change because the puppy looks at them with those puppy eyes and then those people melt. The only thing the puppy remebers is that the humans he is living with are not capable to lead the pack. People only realise this when it is too late and then you need other methods to correct this.
Saskia
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He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
I agree with you both, I think it's necessary sometimes but not for experienced people. It's all about setting boundaries as you both say, just like with children really.
If dog knows his place and it?s not confused by different signals there will probably never be a strugle for alpha position.
Some time ago I posted a funny text that really tell?s you what not to do although usually people do. First you allow one thing, than second and in the end... it can do what ever it want?s to..
House Rules
1. The dog is not allowed in the house.
2. Okay, the dog is allowed in the house, but only in certain rooms.
3. The dog is allowed in all rooms, but has to stay off the furniture.
4. The dog can get on the old furniture only, but has to stay off the new couch.
5. Fine, the dog is allowed on all the furniture, but is not allowed to sleep with the humans on the bed.
6. Okay, the dog is allowed on the bed, but only by invitation.
7. The dog can sleep on the bed whenever he wants, but not under the covers.
8. The dog can sleep under the covers by invitation only.
9. The dog can sleep under the covers every night.
10. Humans must ask permission to sleep under the covers with the dog.
Bye, Raven
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Do not condemn the judgment of another because it differs from your own. You may both be wrong. ~Dandemis
Raven these house rules are funny. Then again even a dog that sleeps in the bed every night is not per definition a dominant dog. Let me trie and ask my question towards you all differently. Does the dog in the video takes the dominant behaviour of his trainer as a correction? Can you use this on your dog if he does not bring the dunbel in the way you want him to? Is physical punnisment more efective than psychologial punnisment. And are we human capeble of reacting with the speed and fairness of a wolf? Is it fair towards our dogs if we trie and mimmick other species?
A dog I produced almost three years ago was returned to me not very long ago because of his supposedly aggression problem. This dog comes from a litter of ten and none of the other pups/dogs have had any issue with behavior problems whatsoever.
This owner also used to compare this dog's reaction to a wolf. I am sorry, but a Belgian is not a WOLF. It is a DOG. One of the biggest problems this person had with this dominant dog was that she and her husband didn't respect the dog as a whole, therefore the dog didn't respect them either.
The dog has been with me for over a week now and he hasn't demonstrate even once the extreme bad behavior and aggression that his previous owners have stated.
The dog is acting like a dog should be. Yes he is dominant but he knows his place around me. He knows I have boundaries and so far he has never tried to challenge them. Hopefully this will continue this way. I really don't see why it wouldn't.
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