fightdrive?

[Pete Mitchell]

Jeff,

I have no idea what video or trainer you are talking about. I think we have to agree to disagree on this subject.

Sorry, but there is no fight drive that I have seen. A drive is something that all dogs have, and there certainly many dogs out there that don't have anything close to "fight" in them.,

If a drive is something all dogs have, What about the dog that will not chase a rabbit or a ball for anything? I have seen quite a few of them. According to your definition there would be no prey drive?

Have you ever worked a dog(in whatever drive or way you wish to call it) that just wanted to kick your ass? They are not scared, they are not looking at you like a prey bunny, they want to fight you period. Yes, this is can be part of a dogs constitution but all dogs have different levels of different drives delivered to them genetically.

 1) Drive= A phisiological state corresponding to a strong need or desire. (Websters Dictionary)
?
? 2) Drive=A strong motivating tendency, instinct, or compultion (especially of a sexual or aggressive origin) , that prompts activity toward a particular end.(American Heritage College Dictionary)

I am hungry= a phisiological state-- I better chase that rabbit

I am angry= a strong motivating tendency(aggressive no?)--I am going to kick your ass.

DRIVES...DRIVES...DRIVES...

[Jeff Oehlsen]

Dogs that won't chase a ball have high thresholds for prey. It isn't that they don't have the drive, the threshold is too high to engage the drive.

I have owned dogs like this, and believe me this desire is not a drive, nor can it be trained. It showed in one of my pups at 3 1/2 months. I don't remember the situation, but there was nothing that would have involved a drive when he went after my buddy who was sitting down. He had a very rough childhood, he was way too immature to deal with himself. As an adult, I was unable to title him. If you threatned this dog he would spit the sleeve and go for your face. He had to be worked on a long line. Dogs that allow the threat, or just bite harder on the sleeve are not what I am talking about.

This was just what this dog was. Other than myself, no one could really handle this dog. If he decided you were in any way impuning his authority he would kill you. I have mixed feelings about wether or not I miss this dog. He produced some nice pups, but was a pain to deal with.

[Vixax]

  I have been talking to many people around Europe, and its hard to fins a terminlogy that we all can agree on..
I come from Sweden and I dont agree with Hoppsans description of Fight drive...I think Jeff has a point.
ALL Dogs are born with "drives" "Behaviours" "Characters"
Its the dogs Hi or low thresholds that makes you see his character/behaviour/drives...

But to make things easy I think DRIVE is a good way of describing what you see. Even if Americans  Invent drives for ALL things Jump-drive, prey-drive, play drive, defense drive, hunt drive, ball drive, I can go on forever:)
How can we standardise our vocabulary so that we all can understand what behaviour we are looking at?

To me the most  common ways of describing dogs are preydrive/defensedrive...
In Sweden we we add sharpness, nerves, courage , temperament, ....they all interact to build one particular individual...

Fight drive to me is a dog that uses his play/preydrive(to me they interact) with attitude...he is not angry(in order to get angy IMO you ned to first have to become scared (scared OF something or scared FOR something) A dog that uses his fightdrive (to me) is a dog that is playing with an serious attitude..that COULD go into defense drive if pushed over the edge...

If I put human perspective on it ...the dog says
shouts Come on! Give me your best shot, and after he has been hit he shouts Oh well, was that all you had, come again! Move and I?ll bite your head off. This dog has a wagging tail up over his back, ears up, no standing hair, mouth shaped in "O" Dark bark, leaning a bit forward

A dog in Defensdrive (to me)
Is a dog wiht a tail standing straight out  no wagging or VERY slow..hair on his shoulders, ears a bit slooping from the head(donkey wize) round mouth "O" shaped but showing more teeth, leaning forward and SCREAMING
-If you come one step closer I will kill you, I will god damned tear you apart and eat the pieces...


Does this make any sence to you how I see it?

Any Idea of making a international language for how we look on dogs behaviour

[Danny]

in order to get angy IMO you ned to first have to become scared (scared OF something or scared FOR something

Hmmm. Scared. I guess we must then define this word. Is scared the same when a dog walks on a narrow ledge 20 feet off the ground and when a dog gets angry when he is stepped on by the helper in protection work (assuming the dog's angry is originates from being scared)? These two psychological states seem different to me.?

[Vixax]

I see two ways of getting angry and start defensdrive(if the dog is courageuous enough, if not he will flee)

  With scared  OF  I mean :

A dog that sees something threatening to
himself, his pack, his territory, or his handler

(I would guess that the type of dog that growls and bites harder  when he gets stepped on by the decoy fits this category)

Scared FOR/about/ (scared is not the right word for it in english though its the same word in Swedish)

I mean...

Scared too loose my food, to loose my rank in the pack, to loose my bone, my toy,
I am not scared of something moving towards me..I am afraid to loose something valuable to me....that can create defensdrive....(If the dog has the guts for it)

You can have the boldets Ring/KNPV dog that still is afraid of hights?

Does scared make sence or should it be fear?
Fear OF / Fear of loosing...

[Pete Mitchell]

i am going to post two times here one for the ignorant and one for the educated.
First for the ignorant:

Dogs that won't chase a ball have high thresholds for prey. It isn't that they don't have the drive, the threshold is too high to engage the drive.

I have owned dogs like this, and believe me this desire is not a drive, nor can it be trained. It showed in one of my pups at 3 1/2 months. I don't remember the situation, but there was nothing that would have involved a drive when he went after my buddy who was sitting down. He had a very rough childhood, he was way too immature to deal with himself. As an adult, I was unable to title him. If you threatned this dog he would spit the sleeve and go for your face. He had to be worked on a long line. Dogs that allow the threat, or just bite harder on the sleeve are not what I am talking about.

This was just what this dog was. Other than myself, no one could really handle this dog. If he decided you were in any way impuning his authority he would kill you. I have mixed feelings about wether or not I miss this dog. He produced some nice pups, but was a pain to deal with.

There are so many things wrong here I don't know where to start. I am open to discussion and opinions if they have any type of logic behind them. There are people who read these forums to try to learn. When people say things and advocate opinions that are dangerous, I can't hold me tongue:

Jeff, you have posted here about 8 times, in those posts you have disrespected German Shepherds, and said IPO ruins dog breeds. Then you describe a dog that spit the sleeve out, goes for your face, and cannot be handled by anyone, as a tough dog

[Pete Mitchell]

 guess it will be three posts...

Con't,

and then you bred that dog?? ARE YOU KIDDING ME?? I have met alot of guys who have opinions similar to yours and they scare me. They want to talk negativley about other sports, breeds of dogs, and then say how they have a dog that is so tough, the can't put a title them. Yeah, Yeah, Yeah.

To any people trying to learn. When a dog spits out the sleeve and goes for the face, that is a nerve issue and the sign of a weak dog. The dog he describes here is showing sign of fear aggression and should be put to sleep--not bred.

IPO ruins dog breeds, Yeah right Jeff. Breeding, bad dogs ruins dog breeds.

Your theories and practices are dangerous.

[Pete Mitchell]

Now, for people who make sense:

Danny and Vixax,

The terminology and vocabulary are definatly the cause for miscommunication. Yes, we Americans have labled alot of "drives" I have put up the definition of drives from the two major American English Dictionaries to try to explain why.

It seems like the major difference in this discussion is that the people in Europe/ Sweeden are saying that they see "fight" as a portion of Play/ Prey, with some attitude. We Americans are seeing "fight" as more of an angry/defensive psycology. In an earlier post I described how I beleive all drives/ behaviours are intertwined. I think we are all correct in our viewpoints but see them a little differently. Let me try to explain my ideology:

You have the Basis of Prey/Defense. Earlier, I stated that I believe training in "fight" drive bridges the gap between prey and defense. When I talk aggression I use the terms Prey, Prey aggresssion, Fight Drive, Defense, and Fear aggression.

Prey you have chase the rabbit, When prey is cornered it has no other alternative but to fight. When the dog catches the prey the prey turn to fight, the dog goes into prey agression. In prey aggression the dog is fighting an inferior opponant, so their is no threat to the fight. the dog knows they are going to win. When the dog fights an opponant that offers a threat, Defense drive kicks in. The confident dog will then go into "fight drive" and say, "Alright dude, lets rock and roll." The dog with less nerve will get to defensive and start to put up a show to scare away the threat. If that doesn't work they go into fear aggression and will attack and attemp to bite to save their life.(They will spit out the sleeve/go for the face in a last ditch attempt to drive away the threat.)

I hope this explains my theory a little and some of the terminology I use.

[Jeff Oehlsen]

It's amazing to me that people assume so much. There was no fear in this dog. This "fight drive" that you describe means nothing. If a strong dog dosn't want to be dominated, the sleeve means nothing to him.
? ? ?Perhaps you haven't seen a decline in the shepherd breed, or are oblivious to it. I started in the 70's training dogs, there mr sensitive pants and have seen the decline. The "working shepherds" are judged by one sport and that is Sch or IPO which are pretty much the same thing. I don't see the HGH titles in dogs pedigrees anymore. I remember catching strong dogs that didn't need to be babied along like the dogs of today. Little precious that can't be worked when he is teething cause it might hurt his drive. I remember the days when we washed those dogs out of the sport.

? ? ?So maybe I have only 8 posts but after 30 years of training and observation, I see less dog out there than before. Sport is not the be all end all. Winning dogs don't always come from winning dogs. This obsession with the sport of Sch or IPO is not a good one. If they were such an awesome test of the character of the dog, then why do PD's not use Sch dogs? They are all about the KNPV and ring dogs. A better program is my guess.

? ? ? So stay with your delusions about what a wonderful test IPO is, and how we are producing better dogs then ever. Its fine with me. I can't deal with sensitive people, or their sensitive dogs.

? ? ?And as far as training goes, if I or the good people I have worked with in the past cannot put a title on a dog it is not because of lack of effort. It is too bad these dogs are being bred out of existance. I would like to give you one and see how far you would get.? I wasn't willing to fry him within an inch of his life, or use an electric sleeve like I have seen used on these dogs. I don't think it would have worked. I know of dogs that were beaten with two by fours into compliance, I have seen x-rays of dogs from overseas that had broken pelvises from the abuse. These were powerful animals, but the allure of the title was worth it for these people. It wasn't for me.

[chuck]

fight to me is a balance, a pyramid if you will (defence....relief w/ prey.....defence.....prey.....) to the point that the dog maintains his own confidence in the engagement, if this makes any sense.  Defence IMO is rooted in fear, and outward agression is a coping mechanism for this fear.  When the dog is rewarded for this behavior w/ a bite he becomes more confident in using his agression and learns to turn it on to relieve stress and obtain prey.

[Vixax]

 
"""Little precious that can't be worked when he is teething cause it might hurt his drive. I remember the days when we washed those dogs out of the sport. """"

Jeff, First of all...It has nothing to do beeing soft to not let the dog bite during teehting...science has proofed that you damage the "seeds" for the new teeth that are coming beneth!
Its just plain STUPID to let the dog bite during teething...and one should also remember that on a young dog "the white hard thing on the tooth" is not hardened yet..It wont get completely hard until the dog is 18 months old...if you do too much bitework with a young dog, he will get pain in his teeth..I have seen MANY dogs where people say they have a bad bite, fear or whatever..rest the dog from biting, do obedience and other stuff, (train the control that they lack so much of) when the dogs comes back after a few months there are no problem with the bites...


I have never seen those dogs that are too tough to compete with...I have seen MANY dogs that gives the finger on the competitions to their handlers..

Most of it it due to bad training..If you put a puppy in a kennel and dont train him properly from young age...these things happen...and also if you look at the old fashioned ways of training (KNPV for instance)
Tie the dog on a pole for a year..and make him crazy..let him bite for a year and be the king of the world...no outs no obedience no control during biting.....and the third year..you add electrisity, hitting, and beating to teach the dog control.... *stupid*
Cheers
Marie

[Jenni]

Most of it it due to bad training..If you put a puppy in a kennel and dont train him properly from young age...these things happen...and also if you look at the old fashioned ways of training (KNPV for instance)
Tie the dog on a pole for a year..and make him crazy..let him bite for a year and be the king of the world...no outs no obedience no control during biting.....and the third year..you add electrisity, hitting, and beating to teach the dog control...

What on earth are you talking about? 

Maybe you'd better cool down a bit now.
You will never succeed to train good, strong and superior dogs with pain, humiliation and unfairness. Especially if you need the dog in K9, your life might depend on it, so youd better take good care of the relationship with the dog.

I don't know how many of you has really been working with dog, but I can assure you that out there in the darkness without anything else to protect and warn you, there is nothing more secure and effective than your dog, on who's paws you can lay your life.

J

[ultramal]

>>The term "fightdrive" is often used in US, but there seems to be different interpretion of what it is. What in your opinion describes a dog that have this fightdrive best.

In the SIMPLEST terms?

A dog that 'welcomes' confrontation or engagement...one that is looking for a 'fight' and never submits to defeat...

[Vixax]

Well  Jenni, I have spent a lot of tine in Belgium/Holland..and I have seen the way people train at some KNPV clubs..
So I dont have to cool down..
In my opinion the training is old fashioned and cruel..
There is some people that DONT train like that as well...but too many are still working dogs the"old way"
E-collars, pinch collars, kicking and beating...
Just sad truth...

[Jenni]

Well? Jenni, I have spent a lot of tine in Belgium/Holland..and I have seen the way people train at some KNPV clubs..
So I dont have to cool down..
In my opinion the training is old fashioned and cruel..
There is some people that DONT train like that as well...but too many are still working dogs the"old way"
E-collars, pinch collars, kicking and beating...
Just sad truth...

And are these clubs succesful in trials and produce that way best dogs for officiels?

Somehow I don't think so. And if they are, then I have to admit that those dogs are bloody good animals working after all that unfairness.

I don't have to travel in Europe to see that, it is quite enough to see some trainings here at the backyard of Russia...  But success? Just see the list of Finnish World Champions, I think that will tell enough.

O tempora, O mores, but world is changing. Maybe one day e-collars and prong are not compared to kicking and other violence. And maybe one day someone will create a breed, that will fit to everyone to get to be the world champion.

But if you really do work with dog, you know that with violence the trust is gone. And that trust is the foundation of your safety out there on the field.

J