The term "fightdrive" is often used in US, but there seems to be different interpretion of what it is. What in your opinion describes a dog that have this fightdrive best.
Like you I am usually lost with drives because people use different words for same things.. I did little research on internet and came to this conclusion (guys who know what they are talking just correct me this is how i understand it after reading couple articles):
Fight drive is in my opinion detaining or to drive away the opponent. The main thing is combat with opponent. Some say it is the willignes to fight and so on.. I?m sure others will give you better answers.
If there's fight-drive, then I do have coffee-drive.
However... people who work with K9 teams intensively do use special terms and words to get to the point of training. Like army people who has their own sign language in field. Keep this for insiders who knows what they talk about.
Otherwise we soon have to deal with pigeon-drive too? (sorry Christian ... still fresh in mind)
I thought of fight drive as something quite playful, with no agression in it (not intention to drive opponent away). The dog wants to fight with a person either without a toy (loads of play invitations and so on) or with a toy. The dog doesnt want to run away with a toy to keep it for itself but to fight about it with someone. Also a dog that gets almost "happy" andd excited when you get angry at him, "hey let's have a fight about it mum, fun " but there doesn't need to be any agression in it. Well this is kind of my view of fight drive but as you say, there might be several definitions of fightdrive
In swedish Korning (mental test) there is a character called "social kamplust", maybe translated to social fighting willingness and even people here has hard time with the definition what it really is but I think it's something like I wrote in the previous message. Anyways, it's something you want in a workingdog
1) Drive= A phisiological state corresponding to a strong need or desire. (Websters Dictionary) ? ? 2) Drive=A strong motivating tendency, instinct, or compultion (especially of a sexual or aggressive origin) , that prompts activity toward a particular end.(American Heritage College Dictionary)
From these definitions obviously "drive " can be used as a very broad term. Also, you can easily turn one "drive" into many different one's or include many "drives" into one. So yes, Teus your compultion for coffee could be termed a "drive"
Raven that article you posted is not bad in my opinion(of course I disagree with some of it. If I didn't I wouldn't be a trainer, right?) it is a good example of the many "drives" we can name and incorperate if we want to.
Martine, I do use and believe in the term "fight drive". I define fight drive as the "willingness to engage in a fight coupled with( i believe more importantly) the willingness to continue the fight even when the dog is not clearly winning. This is my definition. I believe that fight drive, and training in fight drive, bridges the gap and balances the dog between Prey and Defense. I would love to hear your thoughts(and others) on my "answer". I think this could make for a good discussion.
Christian
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"I have come to see my dogs as a reflection of my willingness to try to improve, as well as an unsparing measure of my frequent failures in doing so."
The description I?m used to, and the description used in the Swedish korung is a dog that invites to a fight just for the joy of fighting, like a dog that comes right back at you and push the slipped sleeve/toy in your stomach to countinue the fight. A playfull behaviour but with a toutch of attitude and dominance/aggression, depending on the mentality of the particular dog.
Like in the guardianphase of the decoy, the dog with fightdrive invites the decoy with a bit of attitude to move again so the fight can countine, not just yapping for the sleeve/suit/ to move so the dog are allowed to countine the fun game of biting the toy(sleeve/suit). The "playdog" can also be intense and shaking the bite a lot, but unlike the fightdriven dog it?s more focused on the preyitems and it?s all a big game, the fight with the decoy are not their goal, and if the decoy does something out of the normal game, maybe a bit of threat in the attitude, the "playdog" may not fix this because it lacks the attitude and dominance in the fight.
Something like that is the word fightdrive, or social fightingspirit as it?s called here manifested. I?m not sure if that?s the behaviour americans think of when they say fightdrive, because a dog that is defending himself in mostly defence and pure aggression are also fighting, and I guess many also call that fightdrive. Another good description of fightdrive/social fihghtingspirit is looking at two dogs playing with each other, they use a mix of behaviour, inviting the other dog to play/fight(wagging tail, going down on the frontlegs, barking), and quite rough bodycontacts. Their play/fight could have a toutch of seriousness and dominace, but it?s more like a wrestlingmatch, not a fight on life and death.
Interesting how different countries and societies will see and define things differently. Martine and Hoppsan, what you in your country are calling "social kamplust" or fight drive, I would call and consider play drive.( I can only speak for myself but I think there are many here in the US that would say the same).
I think this is why some people just prefer to keep things simple and say either Prey or Defense. I believe it is more complex than that. Behaviour lies in the brain and the brain is the most complex computer on earth! I use "hunt drive",? 'Play drive", "fight drive", etc, but I believe these drives are all intertwined together. Example- I feel that "hunt drive" is separate from "prey drive" but intertwined. In the wild a dog that just chased the prey that they saw, probably wouldn't survive. Therefor they also need the "drive" to locate hidden prey as well. In our dogs, the difference between the dog that will play ball all day, until you throw it in the bushes and they can't see it. Lots of prey drive, but no "hunt drive".
Another good description of fightdrive/social fihghtingspirit is looking at two dogs playing with each other, they use a mix of behaviour, inviting the other dog to play/fight(wagging tail, going down on the frontlegs, barking), and quite rough bodycontacts. Their play/fight could have a toutch of seriousness and dominace, but it?s more like a wrestlingmatch, not a fight on life and death.
I agree with you on the "mix of behaviour" but when I try to identify or lable a "drive" I look at the psycology behind the behaviour. A real fight is no game. In a real fight you are angry, scared, frustrated, or any number of emotions. There is also usually a reason you are fighting. Social dominance, fighting over a bitch in heat, fighting out of fear for your life?
I define fight drive as the "willingness to engage in a fight coupled with( i believe more importantly) the willingness to continue the fight even when the dog is not clearly winning. This is my definition.
Real fighting pit bull people have a term they call "Game" or "Gameness" and this is where I get part of my definition for fight drive. This "Gameness" is the willingness, or "drive" to continue fighting even when the dog is losing the fight. This is the single most sought after trait in a pit fighting dog. [b]TO BE CLEAR, I DO NOT AGREE WITH DOG FIGHTING![/b]
I find it facinating how people see thing differently. This type of discussion is thought provoking. When we provoke each other's thoughts we make ourselves better.? Good discussion without arguing. I would like to hear more from other's out there.
? ? ? ? Christian
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"I have come to see my dogs as a reflection of my willingness to try to improve, as well as an unsparing measure of my frequent failures in doing so."
I think this is why some people just prefer to keep things simple and say either Prey or Defense.
Do you mean defence in your way or in fight drive, or prey as a fight drive?
Because I think preydrive is something else than fight drive. Here I agree with martin
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The "playdog" can also be intense and shaking the bite a lot, but unlike the fightdriven dog it?s more focused on the preyitems and it?s all a big game, the fight with the decoy are not their goal,
Consider you are watching tv one evening and want to relax, but the dog wants to play. Jumps up on you with a toy, puts it in your lap (or face ) to make you take it. You try to ignore the dog but it's continuing to try to get you in the play by barking, staring at you, jumping up and down and really tryies to make you take the toy. The moment you even touch the toy, or put it aside a bit from your face (the toy is stinky ) the dog shines with happiness
This kind of situation I would call fight drive, it's not prey drive, the prey item is not important for the dog, it's just a tool. The same situation you see with a decoy. Instead of agression there is, like martin said, a quite big portion of dominance (but not agression, agression is for creating distance).
A prey drive dog wants the sleeve or ball or whatever and fights for it, but they hardly "see" the decoy. And when they get the ball, they're happy.
In defencesports like IPO I think you can decide if you want to use "fight drive" or praydrive. Myself, I dont see any point in training in agression. Most dogs possess some amount of both fight drive and prey drive and it's up to decoy and dogowner to decide. Of course some dogs are naturals
Some dogs, when they are not strong enough when fighting for example with a decoy, then they put in some agression in the fight.
Like my dog Warga. She has naturally more fight drive than prey drive. But in a situation when she doesnt feel strong enough, like when a decoy gets too tough for her, tries to impress her, instead of her impressing the decoy, then she puts in some agression. Even if it still is a social play and she thinks it fun, but she wants to create some (just little) distance to be able to cope with the situation.
So her, I want to train in prey drive. I think a dog who's fighting socially with the decoy is really fun and impressive to see, but it needs a dog that is strong enough to dominate the decoy all way.
Noone else who have any thought about the subject?
I was also thinking about growling... Some dogs put in some growling noise (Warga does it and I've seen other dogs do it) when they are inviting someone to fight with them for a toy for example. It sounds very teasing the growl. People that are not used to dogs and that cant read the dog might think it's agressive, but the dog tries and tries to get them play with them?
In this case there is no agression in the growling even if it sounds like it. Do someone have any experience of it or ideas of why they do it?
About dogfighting.... I wouldnt call it a drive when dogs fight for real. The most evolutionary stable thing is to be able to communicate without risking any injuries. Most dogs (that are not just aggressive to every dog) use some kind of social signals (maybe they use fight drive? ) to show who's dominant without fights, during play for example. Adult wolves don't play, they live in family groups and the hierarchy is settled among siblings during playfights. Most offspring leave the group before sexual maturity to find their own partner. (Most etablished ethological "knowledge" from wolves come from zooanimals and is totally wrong compared to recent studies with wild wolves) Our dogs play their whole life but that's how we made them by domestication and breeding. And I would say that when dogs fight for real it is loads of things involved, fear is the biggest thing (hey, pitbulls that are in dogfights and stop fighting, they die, and they are fighting for life, doesn't that bring fear???)
I love Bull Breeds(My first love was Boxers, I have owned two). Because of this I have studied dogfighting and other historical "dog sports" I would love to talk about how I used this to develop my definition for fight drive, but I don't want to go from the "pigeon killer" to the dogfighter!
ONE MORE TIME TO BE CLEAR--- i DO NOT CONDONE DOGFIGHTING!!!!!!!!!!!!
I have worked Pit Bulls that have come from "Game Bred" stock. They are the most couragous dogs I have met. Nothing I have done in any form of training has even began to elicit fear in these dogs. They make AWESOME protection and bite work dogs.
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"I have come to see my dogs as a reflection of my willingness to try to improve, as well as an unsparing measure of my frequent failures in doing so."
Well one thing that is clear to me is what you are calling fight drive I call "play drive" and it is interesting that you bring up the growling thing when the dog is trying to play. I believe this is different than a dog that growls on the bite. I have often wondered about this myself.
Some dogs, when they are not strong enough when fighting for example with a decoy, then they put in some agression in the fight.
Like my dog Warga. She has naturally more fight drive than prey drive. But in a situation when she doesnt feel strong enough, like when a decoy gets too tough for her, tries to impress her, instead of her impressing the decoy, then she puts in some agression. Even if it still is a social play and she thinks it fun, but she wants to create some (just little) distance to be able to cope with the situation.
No here what you are calling fight, I am calling defense. When on the bite and being pressured, a dog that growls is feeling insecure and trying to drive away the threat. They don't want to fight anymore, or want the fight to escalate, because they don't believe they can win; they are "defensive".
So her, I want to train in prey drive. I think a dog who's fighting socially with the decoy is really fun and impressive to see, but it needs a dog that is strong enough to dominate the decoy all way.
My opinion here is you can't do this. In a trial with a new decoy, a new field, and only worked in "prey" when the decoy puts on the pressure; the dog runs a big chance of comming off the bite. Just my opinion. I'm as full of shit as anyone else!! Did I tell you here in the US we have a saying: The only thing two dog trainers can agree on is what the third one is doing wrong!
? ? ? ? ?Christian
PS. I am enjoying your thoughts and ideas.? What do you think about the growling when the dog is trying to play? Maybe we should start a separate thread on this and others will join in?
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"I have come to see my dogs as a reflection of my willingness to try to improve, as well as an unsparing measure of my frequent failures in doing so."
Sorry, but there is no fight drive that I have seen. A drive is something that all dogs have, and there certainly many dogs out there that don't have anything close to "fight" in them. Sure they show their teeth, but that is defense. This farce was invented in the 80's from a breeder in the midwest. I have seen people abuse dogs to try and bring out the "fight drive". It is all crap.
This is something that new trainers that have read this guy's site go out and try to train for, even though in his convoluted description of this fairy tale he says that it can't be trained for.
What you see in these dogs is more of a character trait. This still may not be the best description, but it is in that dog wether you want it to be or not. It has nothing to do with maturity or testosterone. I have seen it in dogs of three months of age. It is who they are.
No here what you are calling fight, I am calling defense. When on the bite and being pressured, a dog that growls is feeling insecure and trying to drive away the threat.
Yes this I call defence aswell, what I ment was that the fight (or play or whatever we call it) goes over in defence when it gets too tough for her.
I think we kind of agree, just use different language
She has no problems with new decoys, we trained with several but we are not doing the whole program yet. So it's the way of "playing" different decoys use and the ones that works best on Warga are the ones that are playfighting with her so she can feel big, but some decoys play with her too intensively and the she goes over in defence. She isn't of porcellin, she is a pretty tough girl but she isn't too strong either
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(sorry Christian ... still fresh in mind)
" but there doesn't need to be any agression in it. Well this is kind of my view of fight drive but as you say, there might be several definitions of fightdrive 
it is a good example of the many "drives" we can name and incorperate if we want to.
Good discussion without arguing. I would like to hear more from other's out there.
) the dog shines with happiness 
Did I tell you here in the US we have a saying: The only thing two dog trainers can agree on is what the third one is doing wrong! 
