fightdrive?

[Pete Mitchell]

Ladies, ladies, don't get all fired up now and off topic. Do you think there is a "fight drive"? Please I would like to hear your opinions on this subject.

fight to me is a balance, a pyramid if you will (defence....relief w/ prey.....defence.....prey.....) to the point that the dog maintains his own confidence in the engagement, if this makes any sense. Defence IMO is rooted in fear, and outward agression is a coping mechanism for this fear. When the dog is rewarded for this behavior w/ a bite he becomes more confident in using his agression and learns to turn it on to relieve stress and obtain prey.

Good definition useing the simple "Prey/Defense"  terminology

[Vixax]

  If I should answer they way we see it in Sweden I would have to say no, there is no fight drive.
(as a science )
Here we have a "common" way of talking about dogs mentality...We have standardised mentaltests where we look at certain characters/behaviour in a dog...these thigs have scientists, behaviourists created for us, and I THINK you can find this in litterature also when it comes to other species

We have devided the animal  "dog"  into these characteristics

Play (social/hunt) (the dogs willingness to engage himself in a friendly fight using muscles &teety, the wilingness to hunt and grap a prey)
Courage (the ability to solve a problem/threat)
Sharpness(The ability to get angry)
Nerves (the stearing wheel, has nothing to do with the english word, this is the dogs ability to focus, concetrate,  the stearing wheel of a formula one car must be of better quality than a stearing wheel of a small Toyota)
Temperament (thye ability to adapt to the environment)

Could be High tempered, a dog that is very alert and if a leave fall he wil notice, a dog with a "slow" temper will fall asleep i f you stand on one spot in 3 minutes)

Defense
(The dogs ability to do something with his sharpness/agression is correlated to Courage, a dog could be sharp and have no courage (not a nice dog)

So for us when we discuss dogs menatlity we always discuss it from testresults, and we often adap the training to what we have found on the test...depending on the dogs mental profile you will have to use different training methods...

But when I hear people talk in training groups...the people that have been abroad and come from IPO world..that talk defense/prey

For the Swedish program they often tall about (translated) "sence for the decoy"
WHich if I would describe the behaviour is a dog that guards the decoy during "bark and hold" a dog that is not loking at the sleeve but are a bit serious....

I would say that "Fightdrive" is more a trained behaviour  a way the dog can learn to interact with people/decoys..IF he has a BIG playdrive and Courage and Defense....what will come out of those characteristics in training bite work...would be fight drive

HAve a nice day:)

[Pete Mitchell]

Marie you come through again! In my first post awhile back(my pigeon and puppy testing) You posted some of this mental test stuff. That took some effort and I appreciated it. Now you post your terminology and basis for your beliefs. This is how we learn from each other! If you are going to have an opinion, theory, or argument provide the info and ammunition for your argument! You are awesome

From what I have learned from your posts and from others in Sweeden; I believe you are a very forward thinking society. I am encouraged and excited by the scientific methodes and testing that the people in your country are doing. BUT i am a frim believer in that dog training is in large part an "art", a feeling if you will, that cannot be captured, taught, or understood by science. Some aspects of it you just "get it" it cannot be learned. Unfortunately there are some in this world that not only "don't get it", but fear and resisit change to the point they become dangerous to dogs, our sports, and to the next generation to come.

It is human nature to fear or resist change. We reach a "comfort zone" and want to stay there. When we do this, we limit ourselves. Dog training, like the world, is constantly evolving. These forums give us the power to educate each other and that can only make us better! Thank you all for a great discussion


? ? ? ? Christian

[Pete Mitchell]

For some reason I cannot seem to insert quotes today.......

Quote from Jenni---"one day maybe e-collars and prongs are not compared to kicking and other violence.....you know that with violence, the trust is gone. That trust is the foundation for your safety out there on the field."


and the day you and your dog have to protect yourselves for real on the street.

AMEN SISTER, COULD NOT HAVE BEEN SAID ANY BETTER

Christian

[chuck]

"BUT i am a frim believer in that dog training is in large part an "art", a feeling if you will, that cannot be captured, taught, or understood by science. "

I like this.

[2a735u]

What a great thread.? Any discussion about drives are always quite interesting.? There usually aren't any right or wrong answers as they are simply ways that trainers try to describe behaviors that they see in dogs that are desirable or undesirable.

I agree with those who see the fighting drive characterized by pushing toys at the handler or slamming the decoy with the sleeve.? It is certainly playing behavior but I think it is an indication that the dog likes to fight.? The more you increase the pressure the more intense the dog gets.? If the dog was not slamming me with a toy he would be biting me which wouldn't be too much fun.? ?If this behavior is nurtured and not made to be too equipment dependent, I think it is a desirable trait.?

I am about to start my third malinois as a police k9 that I raised from a pup.? My two previous dogs did this behavior and they were very successful police dogs.? They can think of nothing more fun than to confront a badguy in a confined space.? The fighting to them is fun and a little pain is part of the game.? It only means that they have to step up their game.?

Most say my dogs look very "sporty".? My dogs? are obedient and don't stress easily.? Most police trainers in my area expect my dog to "fire up" on his own if a decoy stares at him.? My dog just looks at him and waits for him to get close enough to bite.? The last thing he wants is to bark or growl because the decoy might go away and what fun is that??

I understand where the other trainers are coming from, but I know what works for me.? A dog that is always serious and fighting for his life is not going to be too concerned with any commands I might be giving him in the heat of battle such as "stop biting".? The last thing I want is a failed deployment ( where the dog was supposed to bite and didn't ) and so far that has never happened.? ? Alot of it is also in the training, a whole other discussion.

Teus worked my dog in New Jersey a few years back with Mike Calabrese and Bob Campanille.......remember Teus?

Jeff

[ultramal]

"BUT i am a frim believer in that dog training is in large part an "art", a feeling if you will, that cannot be captured, taught, or understood by science. "

I like this.

Chuck, I LOVE the statement and would agree with all of it with the exception that it's a 'large part' of it...

Personally, I have viewed it as about 50/50--half art; half science...

I think READING a dog or having a perception of what the dog needs or to truly understand the behaviors it's exhibiting in order to use appropriate training methods...I think is a 'talent' that very few possess...It's more abstract and therefore more 'artsy' and something that I agree just can't be taught from a book...The training itself however, is TECHNICAL and therefore scientific...

Just a few examples of what I consider to be a 'scientific approach'...ie., we know that a correction or a reward must be forthcoming virtually immediately to be effective or for a dog to make a connection to a desired or undesired behavior/response...

The use of an ecollar is a LEARNED behavior on the handler's part...None of us are born or have an innate predisposition to using it correctly and effectively...To be successful at it...one has to understand how it works, the cognitive behavior of a dog, thresholds of a specific dog, timing etc...To me this is scientifically based and technical in nature as opposed to artistic...

Teaching a pup to begin ScH style tracking using food in every footstep is scientific...

Teaching straight fronts, sits, finishes etc...is purely scientific/technical etc...

I just gave a few examples just so that you know why I said what I did and where I was coming from...

I hope it's 'clearer than mud' lol

Great statement though and a super discussion from everyone!

B

[ultramal]

>>There is some people that DONT train like that as well...but too many are still working dogs the"old way"


Hi Marie!

I agree here...but again it's not the tool but the one who uses it that is the issue...I mean dogs have been injured permanently with chain collars and leashes....but we still use them....It's like saying in a very crude example that guns are bad...no they're not...I've never seen one kill or injure anyone if it wasn't handled...It's the person who handles it that determines how it will be used...

Unfortunately many people still use the prongs and ecollars as strictly punishment tools and training hasn't evolved to where it is in other programs...Although Ringsport will always be my passion...I am now doing IPO...One thing that I think IPO certainly promotes and is a 'level above the rest', is its 'positive training'....More so than ANY other protection program in existence.? WHY?? Because to do well in the program...the dog must show a desire, motivation, love of work and willingness to please--not only in protection...but also in OB....I think this in itself promotes better training, handling, and a better life for a dog.? The other programs don't 'care' how a dog does OB for example...as long as he does it...Well I too have seen much abuse and cruelty on dogs and it's sad to see these dogs work in competition...But if the sport doesn't demand desire, happy attitude, motivation...Then most people won't train for this in mind...Force always get things done 'faster' and doesn't provoke much thought or 'development' from the handler.? This is sad but also true.?

B

[ultramal]

>>Chuck, I LOVE the statement and would agree with all of it with the exception that it's a 'large part' of it...


Sorry...my post below was addressed to Christian... 

[Jenni]

and the day you and your dog have to protect yourselves for real on the street.

AMEN SISTER, COULD NOT HAVE BEEN SAID ANY BETTER

Christian

If I'd said something else, I'd despise the dog, my own dog, who saved my buttocks twice out there on the street. I know what it is to be there, doing your job with dog, getting threathened and being saved by the dog. I know, what complete trust is.

And I am grateful of once owning that kinda dog.

J

[abelmanalo]

I'd like to put my own 2 cents worth.
For me, if we look at what's happening in the dog's physiology, when it is presented with a stimulus that is strong enough to prompt the release of adrenaline from the adrenal glands near the kidneys, a whole new set of biochemical reactions will be triggered.

When the adrenaline hormone is in the blood, as we all know, a "fight or flight" reaction results.
Now, whether the animal will FIGHT or take to FLIGHT is determined by a number of factors.  Basically it is genetic.  Then environmental/ training/ learned factors go into play.

I believe that what most people refer to as "fight drive" is the result of the threshold level of the animals adrenaline excitability coupled with the strength of the resulting fight reaction.

if the animal is easily stimulated to produce adrenaline and has a strong fight reaction as compared to a flight reaction, then that's what could be referred to as "high" fight drive.  if the animal is not easily stimulated to produce adrenaline in the same stimuli, and has a strong flight reaction rather than a fight reaction, then this could be described as an animal with a "weak" fight drive or even a "negative" fight drive.

however different people may use this term, i guess this is the most proper for me.  or not use it at all.