My philosophy with all techniques is it depends on the dog and your ultimate goal with the dog.
Be careful my dear Christian or Pete: you sounds to me as a Nestor, in which you clearly are not.
I like the how people bring in their thoughts in this which can't be called as discussion but as sharing of techniques and knowledge.? The way you try to make arguments out of this I don't think is correct. However, these are your thoughts: acceptable.
When we wanted to push her in defense, or fight drive, I used other decoys.
Now you get stuck here .... defence or fight drive in the meaning of 2 different things? OR in the meaning of the same thing ? Is it logic to throw in the word 'fight drive' related to defence ?
I like to throw you in the pit Martin started when he asked about Americans using the word "fight drive" !! You put in clearly the use of strange decoys: because of clear relation of flight to fight ?
Be careful my dear Christian or Pete: you sounds to me as a Nestor, in which you clearly are not.
I like the how people bring in their thoughts in this which can't be called as discussion but as sharing of techniques and knowledge.? The way you try to make arguments out of this I don't think is correct. However, these are your thoughts: acceptable.
I am sorry, I don't know what a "Nestor" is. Clearly,? I am not the one trying to start an argument.
This is a great discussion Teus, why are you trying to start shit?
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"I have come to see my dogs as a reflection of my willingness to try to improve, as well as an unsparing measure of my frequent failures in doing so."
>>If your only goal is sport competition, and you have a "sporty" type dog I believe decoy correction makes postioning, outing, etc. very sharp and precise.
***One can still achieve these without decoy corrections...You obviously haven't been in trials where rules are 'flexed' on a regular basis and the opponent whose goal is for your dog to lose points, is whispering commands to your dog during a trial routine...A smart trainer will equip their dog with whatever skills needed to succeed and that includes training him to ignore others' commands....And this has nothing to do with sport vs real....
>>As for carrying the sleeve, I do that as well. I think it motivates the dog,a dn builds confidence.
***Please explain how carrying a 'dead object' would do this....My dogs confidence is reinforced through decoy/helper 'submission'....For a puppy, YES....an older dog...very unlikely.? Seen MANY dogs that just want that sleeve and then try to get the heck out of there and off the field ASAP....it's actually avoidance.? And I've seen MANY dogs which haven't got a clue as to what to do when the helper doesn't slip the sleeve...Since those dogs feel the whole purpose of the bite is to 'win the sleeve'.? ? Biting for them has nothing to do with the 'fight' or dominating an 'engagement'...It's simply...'I hang on and I get this object'....
***As well, the 'motivation' should be the 'bite/engagement'...not the 'aftermath'.
>>I also use it to let the dog "unload" after a particularly stressfull session.
***It's up to the DECOY to 'unload' or relieve stress...A good decoy should be able to switch your dog from prey to defense and back to prey on one bite....That's assuming you have a dog with a balance of drives and good nerves.
>>I have found it is very easy to get the dog to out the sleeve and go back on the man.
***So have I...and carrying the sleeve had nothing to do with it...in actuality, I never had to teach my dog how or what an 'out' is....He learned as a 4 month old that if he 'outs'....he is rewarded with another bite and the 'game' continues.? Prior to that....he was outing on toys on command...so the term 'out' was a familiar one to him long before it was ever used during protection.
>>----"always giving the sleeve gives the dog tendancy to start pulling back when they know the attack is almost finished" ----I have never thought about this. I also do not want my dog to ever pull back.
****I'm sure that this habit of pulling can be the result of ALWAYS 'winning the sleeve'...But I also think much of it is dictated by genetics.? My guy will always drive INTO the bite whether he wins the sleeve or not...but then again I don't pattern train nor do I give him the sleeve on a regular basis...He just tends to be a dog that pushes and drives into the bite while still trying to 'control the fight'. I think genetics are a variable that one can't 'ignore'.
***Anyways good discussion!
B
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"Desire is the key to motivation, but it's the determination and commitment to an unrelenting pursuit of your goal - a commitment to excellence - that will enable you to attain the success you seek."
I have to agree that carrying the sleeve is not important. One of the problems with Sch, or ipo is the extreme judging. Extreme judging lessens a great dogs performance. The training will have to be rediculous to keep the performance tight. With a true powerful dog, all these corrections can start an arguement between handler and dog.
Excessive pulling is a sign that the dog is trying to get away. Not good in my book. The good dogs push in, wanting to continue the battle. bringing the sleeve back is not good, like a retrieve or something. Good is when the helper gives up the sleeve and the dog pushes it into the decoy, or even better the dog drops the sleeve and give the decoy a little reminder
Fight drive. This is a goofy term that was made up in the 80's. It's meaning is shit. The theory behind it is that only a few mystical dogs have it. Then in the video tape they go on to contradict themselves and say that it is a mix of prey and defense. CRAP CRAP CRAP!!! I got ripped off when I bought that video tape as well. I just saw it as crap earlier than most. Can't get the money back now.
Pinch Collars (Hoppsan) - the collar is used like any other collar. To guide, to stimulate, to correct. Depends on what we are doing (teaching vs proofing), what the dog is doing, etc. I doubt I use the pinch any differently than you would use the choke chain or flat collar.
Decoy corrections - it depends on the dog, and depends on what I'm doing. Decoy corrections are VERY common in French Ring training, not nearly as common in Sch. In the photos although the helper had a leash, it wasn't for corrections. He used it a few times to move Crash around, keep him lined up where he wanted him, but he never used it to correct him. Crash doesn't respond well to decoy corrections, he will fight back. I did a lot of his foundation work myself, so it's not like he's never had decoy corrections. And I have 1 decoy who can do minor corrections for me. But Crash views him more like he views me when I work him, as a sparring partner not an adversary. Other decoys he views as an adversary, those are not allowed to correct him.
Carrying the sleeve - I see some Sch people do it, and some don't. A lot of the ones who do have told me it's a way to calm a dogs grip, get them biting full and calm on the sleeve. The dogs who have a tendency to be munchy need it, the dogs who bite full/calm/hard don't. I do more FR than Sch, it's hard to slip the entire suit to a dog for a carry :-) So we don't use it much, except with pups.
Pushing vs Pulling - this can be genetics, this can be taught. I have talked to people who have taught their dog to push into the bite using the e-collar or other stimulation. I saw the dog working, if you didn't know the training behind the dog you would think he had naturally full strong grips. And I have seen dogs who have a naturally full, pushing in style of bite learn to pull through incorrect helper work (never giving the win when the dogs pushing, only giving the win when the dog pulls). Good or bad helper work can do a lot to disguise the genetics of the dog.
I don't want to get into to many details, because I didn't train the dog, only saw him worked a few times and discussed how the training was being done with his owner. If I try to get specific, I'm sure I'll make a mistake on a step they took along the way.
It's kind of the same thing as a forced retrieve. I'm not sure if they taught the regrip with the stim, or just used the stim to reinforce the regrip once the dog knew what was being asked of it. This was not a dog who didn't want to bite, but a dog whose biting style they didn't really like. Not a bad dog, but not a super strong dog either. They dog learned to turn off the pressure, both from the decoy and the collar, by regripping in fuller/deeper.
Brigita- Your references to decoys not being ethical is the reason I will probably never attempt the higher levels of French Ring. Ring sport in North American definatly has it's problems, but that is another discussion.
We are on the same page about most of this but are expressing it differently. I am beginning to see the problems in trying to communicate through forum discussion and why people often end up argueing.****Genetics is a variable we can't ignore. I comletely agree and is why i am researching so hard for my next pup!!
My philosophy with all techniques is it depends on the dog and your ultimate goal with the dog.
What I mean by this is I believe there are many ways to "skin a cat". Different things work for different dogs. Unfortunatly, much of my experience is with weaker dogs. The clubs I have worked with are very open to everyone and unfortunatly many of these people are new to the game so we have to work with what we have ? so yes some of these dogs you have to teach that if they just hang in there, things will be ok. Slipping the sleeve is a way give these guys a reward for "hanging in there". Is this what I would like to do all the time, NO,? and I don't do it with every dog,but sometimes we have to. ? It is the decoys job to channel drives and to push and then reward the dog through submission. Stressing a dog, and slipping the sleeve and letting them unload on dead prey, I believe is another way to do this.
I stand by my decoy correction in that I believe one or two "sparing partners" is ok, but I will never let everyone and anyone correct my dog.? I would not attempt to use decoy correction on a real dominant dog if it just turns into a big fight.
So I believe we are on the same page for most of this. I believe the best trainers are the one's who can adapt to doing whatever works for the dog. If it doesn't physically hurt the dog and gets results, I'm good with it.
Malndobe---Agree with the sleeve and calming the grip. Often the same technique can have different goals or outcomes don't you agree?
I am also with you on that pushing/ pulling can have alot to do with the decoy work. If you are rewarding the pulling, even good, strong dogs will then pull. If I get a young dog with a 3/4 grip I am pretty happy cuz you can teach the other 1/4 (but I think we all will take the one with the natural full grip if we have the choice).
Your friend who uses the e-collar for grip work. I have never heard of that and is way beyond my knowlege and experience useing the E-collar, but quite interesting.
? ? ? ?Christian
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"I have come to see my dogs as a reflection of my willingness to try to improve, as well as an unsparing measure of my frequent failures in doing so."
Christian....I know exactly where you're coming from and I do agree with you 99.9%!
But you know it's not just Ring in NA...I'm talking about Ring in FRANCE...I have seen videos and mpegs with decoys (of incredible talent and ability) in Selectifs and the Coupe command dogs to 'down' or 'stay' on an escort...just an example...In the higher levels such as the Selectifs and the Coupe...one can say 'anything goes'...Because, at THAT level; their job is to separate the GREAT from the VERY GOOD.? And those dogs who 'know' their job and have been desensitized to environmental factors such as decoys giving commands...are the ones who are in it at the end....The decoys who did this to MY dog in NA were French; and one was at that time, considered to be the elite/top decoy in France who had done countless Selectifs and the Coupe several times.? It's a game...but it's a game between man vs dog...I think if we strive to go to that level...we have to 'equip' our dogs with everything possible.? FR is not Sch where the decoy is a 'helper'...lol hardly...The decoy is the adversary and it's up to us to ensure we equip our dogs to counter such an opponent.? They're not there to make our dogs look 'good'....It took me almost a year to teach my old guy to be 'oblivious' to any commands shouted by the decoy and to continue to work through decoy corrections....Nobody said Ring was easy!
And yes, I agree...with many dogs actually...the helper has to 'slip the sleeve'...It's the ONLY way to keep these type of dogs 'in the game'....And yes weak dogs...do need a pay check like a slipped sleeve to continue...I agree with you.
I think we ARE on the same page C!? And I have always stated to my club members...'hey...if it works for that dog...then do it!'
And I would also like to add that I like Michael Ellis' rationale on the sleeve carrying...His belief is that if a dog is 'calm, full, focused on the bite when on the man' then carrying is redundant....but if his bite is crap on the man...then encourage, praise, reinforce carrying the sleeve'.? This makes a lot of sense.? But he also explained beautifully the difference between GSD's and Malis...and how they were really created for two different things...The Malis were created for the 'fight/engagement'...and the GSD's were created for a higher 'possession' trait ie., carrying the sleeve....My dogs don't 'unload' by carrying the sleeve...They unload on the fight.? The fight is what bring them 'contentment'...And although we do the 'same' program...we need to look at breed differences as well...
Thanks for the feedback Christian!
Brigita
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"Desire is the key to motivation, but it's the determination and commitment to an unrelenting pursuit of your goal - a commitment to excellence - that will enable you to attain the success you seek."
Excellent discussion particularly on sleeve carrying. The best explanation I have heard for sleeve carrying is also from Michael Ellis. Michael believes that techniques such as sleeve carrying were created for a specific purpose for a particular kind of dog. That dog was the GSD of yester year which was a very civil dog and tended to lack prey drive in the protection phase of the work. So techniques were developed to raise the dogs interest in the equipment so as to keep him in balance since he was prone to being way too focused on the man.
The techniques to build such a dogs desire for the equipment included kicking the sleeve, slipping the sleeve early and making the dog circle.
These techniques are still very useful but ONLY for the kind of dog which they were created for. That type of very civil, while common in yester-year is really the exception in competitive programs.
Michael's opinion is that todays dog (even todays GSD and particularly todays belgian) is quite different and generally is way more of a prey monster. So using techniques that were meant to stimulate a civil dog's interest in the equpiment, on a dog who is not civil and is already crazy about the equipment is generally counter productive. He believes that the right way to work the average belgian AND even the GSD of today is to let the dog unload on the sleeve. That means long bites on the sleeve with the helper encouraging the dog to clamp down on the sleeve and stay clamped and comfortable. He will slip the sleeve when the dog has a calm bite on it (after the prey monster has bled his energy and hecticness on the sleeve). It was wonderful to watch as my dog who generally goes into "thrash the sleeve" mode when the sleeve is normally slipped to her during protection sessions at the club, circled and held it on her own after Michael slipped it to her.
Now I don't really know whether Michael is 100% right or 90% right or 50% right... but I do believe that he really is onto something as I can clearly see dogs responding to what he is doing.
For anybody who lets their dog carry forces them to hold - if you are doing this because you believe it gains your dog x, y or z.... thats great!. You've thought through it and maybe you are right. However it drives me nuts when schutzhunders do it just because "this is how it is done".
Excessive pulling is a sign that the dog is trying to get away. Not good in my book. The good dogs push in, wanting to continue the battle. bringing the sleeve back is not good, like a retrieve or something. Good is when the helper gives up the sleeve and the dog pushes it into the decoy, or even better the dog drops the sleeve and give the decoy a little reminder
Hi Jeff and Martine:
You've really made me think. The traditional style at schutzhund clubs is to enourage dogs to pull. Heck the sleeve is slipped when the dog is pulling at its hardest!.
I have a lower threshold dog that I am trying to teach to stay calm on the bite (instead of growling and trying to fight like crazy). She does pull an awful lot and this has generally been seen as a positive in schutzhund.!
I see now that due to the obsessive schutzhund helper behaviour of rewarding the dog for pulling has made my problem worse :-).
Not sure I follow why you don't like a dog that brings the sleeve back to the helper to fight more. I only see this as a positive as I see the dog that cares little about possessing the equipiment and would rather fight. My dog does this when I let her win the tug sometimes during play she brings it right back to me. She does the same when the helper slips the sleeve and I run her in a circle - she bring sit right back to him... don't see the negative... please enlighten.
I think I was trying to say that I like a dog that stays in front and pushes in to the decoy even when the sleeve is slipped and doesn't run off with it, then bring it back. I suck at typing, and often see that people are not seeing my point. This is mostly due to my poor communication skills when it comes to typing. In person I could show and tell at same time and you would see what I meant really fast. Hope this makes more sense.
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? Biting for them has nothing to do with the 'fight' or dominating an 'engagement'...It's simply...'I hang on and I get this object'....
? so yes some of these dogs you have to teach that if they just hang in there, things will be ok. Slipping the sleeve is a way give these guys a reward for "hanging in there". Is this what I would like to do all the time, NO,? and I don't do it with every dog,but sometimes we have to. 
? It is the decoys job to channel drives and to push and then reward the dog through submission. Stressing a dog, and slipping the sleeve and letting them unload on dead prey, I believe is another way to do this. 
