These are some photos from a recent seminar of my boy Crash.? He's actually mainly training for Ring, although we are doing a little tracking and motion exercises in case I eventually decide to do some Sch with him also.? Took him to a seminar though with a very good Sch helper, so he got to play "Sch dog" for the day :-)
I wonder about the harness and the green leash (clipped on a stake in ground ?). The red leash you hold and been hold by decoy. If on pinch I guess for the out. If on leather I guess for you to have the dog drag around the sleeve.
Is the green leash and harnass to keep the dog at on location ?? Does this mean you switch from leather collar to pinch while the dog is holding the grip ??
The green line to the harness was to back tie him. I wanted to work on the barking/aggression in the guarding. Doing it on the pole is pretty typical Sch style. The red line to the pinch was so the helper could pop him with it at times, for a variety of reasons. Sometimes it was placement (get him to move where the decoy wanted), sometimes it was a little bit of a stim, when he slipped the sleeve I used it to guide Crash while he was carrying the sleeve. If the dog is in a harness, I don't bother with a leather collar. The harness will work for back pressure, and I can do any collar work I need to on the pinch.
Mont alves: in Sweden that kind of collar is not allowed to be used in the dogtraining organization (think it's even forbidden by law like e-collar is). And people hasn't used those collars for decades. It is definitely possible to train dogs without those collars.
It is definitely possible to train dogs without those collars.?
Although you are right, it's possible to train without a pinch, it is a tool that I find works very well when used correctly. And is IMO much more humane than a choke or slip collar, despite the "barbaric" look of the collar.
Correct training or abuse, comes from the handler and the methods they use. It is not specific to any one tool. I can abuse a dog just as easily with nothing but a flat collar on it, or no collar on it at all, as I can with anything else. I knew a trainer quite a few years ago whose marketing went something like this "we don't need food, toys, pinch collars, electric collars or any other tricks and gimmiks to train your dog. Just a simple piece of string and love". The string was tied with loops at each end and worked similar to a basic choke chain. What he would imply to potential clients is that food and toys are tricks, and pinch and electric collars are abuse, and people should avoid trainers who used them. Sure he didn't use those. Instead he kicked dogs, hit them, strung them up, or threw things at them if they didn't do what he told them to.
In what situations do you use pinch collars during defence training?
Is it only for learning of or some other situations aswell?
In Sweden I think most people when they start trainig defence, we just play with the young dog and it learns that when the decoy stands still it lets off and the decoy gives the sleeve again and lets the dog have it as a reward. Later when the dog matures maybe it doesnt let go just because the decoy stands still (I know it shouldn't in IPO) but the handler should then have so good leadership so he/ she can from distance tell the dog to let off without violence. The dog also knows the situation and sknows it will be rewarded with the sleeve.
This may not be the best time ore place to start this but , I would like to hear people's opinion on decoy correction, and the "carry"-giving the dog the sleeve to carry after the agitation is over.
Christian
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"I have come to see my dogs as a reflection of my willingness to try to improve, as well as an unsparing measure of my frequent failures in doing so."
I would like to hear people's opinion on decoy correction, and the "carry"-giving the dog the sleeve to carry after the agitation is over.
Personally I don't like the decoy to correct a dog. A weaker dog will lose confidence and a strong dog will get even more dominant and you'll get problems with the "out".
IMO correction has to come from the handler. A decoy is there to use the right techniques for grip and confidence. When the handler has to punish strongly this has an influence on the dog. Then the decoy must be there to help the dog and bring confidence. Of course a good decoy will always apply corrections the dog isn't aware of (f.i. right techniques for entrance and grip) but these aren't punishments. My opinion: nobody but me ever punishes my dog. It is me he has to respect and no one else.
About sleeve carrying, we do this with very young dogs, the first times they bite. Afterwards we never do this anymore. We want a dog to push in the grip and move forward. Always getting the sleeve gives tendency to a dog to start pulling when he knows the attack is almost finished and that's something we don't like at all.
I am only have been a decoy for about 6 months?. The club i am at is forutnate to have a handful of decoys. and there is defintly a differnce in the dogs additude on who the dog is working with. some dogs i do apply light verbal correction. like telling a dog no, when they touch the sleeve before they are supposed to. but these are not really corrections, they are no reward markers. I am not scolding the dog. i am telling the dog, that is not going to get you the sleeve. these are usually the weaker dogs or young dogs who are learning or are not confident. the older stronger dogs, i try to be more of the opposition. then the help. like i said i am a young decoy and have a lot to learn.
This may not be the best time ore place to start this but , I would like to hear people's opinion on decoy correction, and the "carry"-giving the dog the sleeve to carry after the agitation is over.
Christian
Hi Christian!
I am not, nor ever have been a 'fan' of a decoy/helper correcting my dogs.? I have never allowed it.? There's a few reasons...but my 2 main ones are that I don't want my dog to 'respect' his adversary...he only needs to respect me.? I am his handler and I am the one who gives the commands...nobody else.? With my dogs, a correction would bring about a 'brawl' and defeat the purpose of teaching/learning/control etc...With a pup the decoy is his friend/teacher and one who should be trusted in order for learning to take place....So I allow guiding, praise, play-fighting etc...from the decoy...but again NO corrections...When training takes on a different level and the dog is obviously older....EVERYTHING comes from ME.
Sleeve carrying--not a big fan of this either...For my pups, I allow it and praise the pup...But once they're older (around 8 mos and up); I don't really care if they drop it or carry it only a few meters, or not at all.? I believe the reward is in the bite/engagement and not in a 'dead object'.? The focus must be on the man regardless of program.? I encourage, praise, and reinforce my own dogs when they spit the sleeve out to refocus on the decoy/game and then they receive another repeat of this 'game/bite'.? I actually had to command and teach my dog to carry the sleeve (because when I started in IPO, I was told I had to do this because that's just the way things were done--I've stopped this long ago lol )...and he's a naturally possessive dog lol.? What he wanted was the FIGHT...not the object.? But once the fight is over...WHY would he want to hold on to the sleeve/object?? lol
Gratification should be derived from engaging his opposition; and NOT 'winning the sleeve' IMO.? Now, if sleeve carrying doesn't conflict with how he engages, focuses, or bites his adversary, and his drive to engage is stronger than anything else...then I don't care if he chooses to carry it for a few seconds/meters or on the last bite etc....But I've seen so many GSD's; whose possession and carrying (sleeve happy) is stronger than the 'fight'...so strong in fact that the dog even fights the handler when he's back at the vehicle and must 'give up' his object...Then it becomes a huge problem.? This to me defeats the entire philosophy behind PROTECTION dogs.
To my surprise...even Flinks was not adamant about dogs carrying the sleeve 'forever' lol.? He stated that this was traditional (ie., archaic) and his club doesn't do it any more.? To him...if a dog carries a sleeve ONCE around his handler while on a long line or leash...that was good enough for him.? He said 'indefinite' sleeve carrying doesn't really accomplish anything...They want the dog to have an instant desire to re-engage into the 'game'.
Funny thing is that I've asked countless times 'die hard ScH/IPO' individuals...WHY is it important for a dog to carry the sleeve and what does it accomplish??--I have yet to receive a logical explanation...
I hope my post is clear enough to understand.? If not, please let me know.?
Take care.
B
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I would like to hear people's opinion on decoy correction, and the "carry"-giving the dog the sleeve to carry after the agitation is over.
No one decoy isn't allow to correct my dog through punishment. But help of the decoy to improve bite quality or fight or grip I do welcome. A passive decoy is useless. But help in being clean, positioning or out I do not accept with my dogs.
The sleeve carrying. In this I am more IPO shaped. I do make my dogs win the sleeve. Mostly I do tell decoy when to give the sleeve to the dog. But the difference here is how I teach my dogs also to bring straight back to me after the win. In this case after the win you see my dogs happy running back to me with calm full grip. On command they spit out and ready for another round. After a while you will see my dogs run to me, turn his body to the decoy, spit out the sleeve and be very focussed on the decoy and not much the sleeve. That I like: sharpness to the man.
With this I get the dogs have feeling they always win from the decoy. When I have that I can build up courage and more serious battle between dog and decoy without the dog loosing his full and calm grip for his mental state is courageous.
Carrying round and round the sleeve is useless: that's no prey drive related.
The idea for me to have the dog win the sleeve: make him switch from prey to defence to prey and back to defence. This switch you can keep on in an endless loop.
Thanks guys! This is why I am here. I have had some interesting discussions on both subject with many trainers. Decoy correction seems to get people the most worked up.
My philosophy with all techniques is it depends on the dog and your ultimate goal with the dog. To explain- If your only goal is sport competition, and you have a "sporty" type dog I believe decoy correction makes postioning, outing, etc. very sharp and precise. I have never, as a decoy, corrected a very fight driven dominant dog. Early in my career, I saw a french ring trainer teaching a KNPV dog with decoy correction, they were really fighting each other. I remember thinking, "there has got to be a bettrer way to do that".
If you are training a police dog or a dog for "real work" I agree with you guys in terms of the dog should not be conditioned to being corrected by the "bad guy". BUT I believe a dog knows the difference between their training partner and a real fight!? In the 8 years I trained with my dog, I allowed two, and only two, decoys to correct her. When we were working on technique and precision I used them. When we wanted to push her in defense, or fight drive, I used other decoys. We did well in competition and there was never any doubt about her biting for real.
As for carrying the sleeve, I do that as well. I think it motivates the dog,a dn builds confidence. I also use it to let the dog "unload" after a particularly stressfull session. I have found it is very easy to get the dog to out the sleeve and go back on the man.
Martine brings up an interesting point----"always giving the sleeve gives the dog tendancy to start pulling back when they know the attack is almost finished" ----I have never thought about this. I also do not want my dog to ever pull back. I will pay attention to this now and see if I see this the way you do.
? ? ? ?Good discussion,
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Christian
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"I have come to see my dogs as a reflection of my willingness to try to improve, as well as an unsparing measure of my frequent failures in doing so."
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