Koru tried killing a sheep

[Ian]

Bad news, last week Koru took down and try killing a sheep.? The sheep had broken into my training field. Koru was off leash playing ball, when he spotted the sheep his prey drive went into overdrive and he did not respond to the recall.
When I caught up with him I gave him a good telling off, but by this point he'd already got a taste.
Now when I take him in the training field he goes to the hedge looking for the sheep, in the field next to mine, so the field has become useless other than leash work.
I have walked him through a lot of fields with sheep before, but never let him off the leash, up to this point he has not shown much interest.
The idea would be to have him completely indifferent to sheep.
I know this is all a bit after the horse has bolted, has anybody got any useful advice.
(Koru is nearly eight months old)

[ultramal]

Hi Ian

'Crittering' can become quite an obsession as you have found out....

Advice at this point?

***Proper introduction of an ecollar for starters...Then set him up in that situation (yes with sheep)...And finally; application of the training tool in an effort to rid or eliminate this behaviour. ---CONSISTENCY being the 'key' here...

Good Luck!

[sculpadog]

Advice at this point?

***Proper introduction of an ecollar for starters...Then set him up in that situation (yes with sheep)...And finally; application of the training tool in an effort to rid or eliminate this behaviour. ---CONSISTENCY being the 'key' here...

Good Luck!

well well.
We spoke about e-collars before and concusion was how e-collar would be friendly, not painfull etc. Now e-collar is a strong correction tool and adviced to someone with his first malinois and never used an e-collar

I think this is how things get worse soon.

My simple advice: keep training and know Koru has tendency to focus sheep. Repeat training and make training short. While training you 'force' Koru to watch you, to concentrate on you.
Sadly, because of this new obsession you fell back many many steps and so you have to keep him on lead and work obedience. But work as long as Koru can keep his attention to you.
Avoid to become mad just be consistent.

Of course you also do train at 'sheep-free' places to show Koru how he does his job perfect and there you are able to stimulate positive in training. Don't be a "no - no - no guy? " only !!

Two weeks of this many short trainings around live animal and you will see Koru not much interested anymore. When you get there you build up concentration and attention to you.
As soon as you have this you will be able to introduce a toy (bitebar) and/or sleeve and if build up correct you will learn Koru get attention to the work and not sheep.

When able to do so at your trainingsfield (never ever give up any location because dog has no attention or is distracted: you are handler and thus you have to work harder to get the dog at level he works for you!) you could introduce new location which might be more harder for Koru (inside pen with flock of sheep).

Teus

[ultramal]

Teus...an ecollar, like any other training tool can be used as a 'correction tool'.? Depending on the dog, the situation, and the issue we're discussing, or whether we're modifying or eliminating a certain behaviour...will dictate how it should be used...

For example:

If I want my dog to sit 'faster' for an IPO competition...I am NOT going to use this tool in the same manner as I would if my dog had a habit of running in front of cars, or chasing wild game, or cyclists, or children, or killing livestock...It's all relative IMHO.

Where I come from...a farmer can shoot your dog on site just for chasing (even if playing) with livestock...nevermind mauling or killing.? The owner can also get charged and the dog deemed 'dangerous' and euthanized--there are no second or third chances here.? Livestock owners here, don't take this lightly, and the dog is ALWAYS the one who 'pays' the price in the end.

To modify vs eliminate a specific behaviour; are entirely different things...Oh, and I've seen and know of dogs personally (one a malinois) that have maimed and killed livestock repeatedly (chickens, ducks, geese, sheep, goats and mauled a pony to the point it had to be put down)...but NEVER when the owner was close by...These dogs were born and raised on farms and various methods of behavior modification was attempted with absolutely no improvement...But I also know of several dogs (and one which sticks out in my mind is a GSD) who were cat killers...and nothing worked until the ecollar was tried (with supervision and guidance)...This dog killed over a dozen cats/kittens (most died from missing limbs and hemorrhage)...after THREE 5 min sessions with the ecollar (and two 5 sessions/week for a month)...he never touched nor chased another cat again.? In fact, whenever he saw a cat; he would turn his focus somewhere else and ignore them.? This dog was 3 years old.? After 6 months...he was sleeping with cats and eating out of the same bowl with them.? He is now 7 and hasn't killed another animal since; nor worn an ecollar.

In this case, either the dog was put down; or the cats were killed...Neither option was acceptable.?

Here they were not trying to modify an existing behaviour...they were attempting to extinguish it.? After more than 30 years of training...I am of the opinion that training is not black and white (good or harsh)....other variables must be taken into consideration when deciding as to which approach to take.? I don't see a dog mauling or killing another animal on the same level as giving me a crooked sit or a slow retrieve etc....

An ecollar is an awesome tool if in the right hands...like with any other piece of equipment.

Again, JMO.

B

[ultramal]

Forgot to mention...that this dog was left daily to roam about freely with cats, after the first month...while the owners were working (10-12 hours/day).? And 4 years later, he still behaves as if cats are his 'best friends'.

[sculpadog]

An ecollar is an awesome tool if in the right hands...like with any other piece of equipment.

Again, JMO.

B

Here again I agree with you: "in the right hands !"
I don't think (with all respect to IAN) in this situation with Koru this advice is very effective: first Malinois, Novice handler and young dog who 'played' with sheep. ((was it really killing or just rough playing or ??))

If you would say: find a good e-collar instructor and work with him on this issue. I would say: good. But finding a good e-collar instructor in UK is very hard !!

----

Beside that: I have fixed behavior problems toward livestock, even with cats and aggression towards other dogs without e-collar. Modify behavior problems without e-collar is very much possible. ((even with handlers not present thus correct modification and not control.))

I don't want to say your training or mine is better or worse. I just say: let's be careful before you advice e-collar as correction (!) to a novice. Even though you tell correct usage is needed.

Teus

[ultramal]

You are ABSOLUTELY correct Teus!? I was simply seeing the problem and replied from my own knowledge/experience in this situation.? But you are definitely right...This is not something that a novice or beginner should attempt.? If he has experience with it (which I said was necessary)...then great...but if doesn't...then find another way.

Unfortunately through the internet...we have no idea as to who is experienced and who isn't (esp. across that pond). ? We can only go by what we read....There are many that shouldn't even hold a leash...nevermind an ecollar!


B

[Ian]

Thanks for the advice, interesting to see what you both had written.
I will stay away from electric collar for now.? The end result I'm looking for is a dog which doesn't see the sheep as prey, the only way I see this coming about is by spending a lot of time training in and around sheep, lets hope I don't become sheep lover  

Thanks
Ian?

[Pete Mitchell]

 I think we all agree about inexperience and e-collars. I have lived on a cattle ranch and know that here in North America dogs running loose with livestock(even if they are not chasing them) can, and often are, shot. Chasing livestock needs to be controlled by any and all means or no more dog!!Sometimes, as trainers we get caught up in the "method", or argueing about the method , and we miss the real issue. I believe the "method" should be the least of our concerns here.

Ian, you are on this board and asking questions. You should be commended for that. I am going to be rough on you here, but understand it is only with the best intentions. The problem, as I see it, is bad handling and you not fully appreciating what your dog is and is capable of.
Good dog handling means you are fully aware of your surroundings, understand your dogs temperment, and knowing your level of training and control. It is your responsibility as to who and what comes into contact with your dog! .? You said the sheep "snuck onto your training field"? Did you not know there were sheep near where you trained? Did this sheep magically appear or did you not check before you let your dog off lead? Did you not think your dog would chase it or did you believe your recall was strong enough? Bottom line, you let your dog off lead, were unable to control your dog, and he hurt another animal: NOT OK My standard line is your dog will only fail if you give it the opportunity to. You gave him the opportunity to screw up and he did. I know you did not mean for this to happen. You made a mistake. Change the scanario a little. Your dog is 18 months old and instead of a sheep, it is a 3 year old girl running around with a bunch of balloons, shrieking with glee. You don't have the right to make that mistake.

You sent me a copy of your dogs pedigree a while back. If I remember correctly, he was tighly linebred on Stoned van de Duvetorre with Boscaille lines with Galliard and Espiore in the first 3 or 4 generations. This is a dog that needs to be taken seriously. You described your dogs Sire as "Violent and the toughest dog you had ever seen." If you know this, why on earth would you ever let this dog off lead without absolute control over the environment? Excuse me while I step up on my soapbox......

I hate to break it to everyone but WORKING LINES OF MALINIOS ARE NOT HERDING DOGS ANYMORE!!! Of course they can, and many do, but every herding trainer I have talked to say the problem they have with Malinios are they are too aggressive towards the animals. Why is that? Because for the last 30 years Malinios have been bred to fight with human beings, not herd sheep!? Be it as a game on the field, or for real on the street, that is what the Malinios from these types of lines have been bred to do. Because of this they have pronounced drive, courage, aggression, and social dominance. Handling these types of dogs carries as much responsibility as carrying a firearm!! Even more so because unlike a gun, dogs can, and will make their own decisions!!!!

Ian, I don't want to beat up on you too badly, but this is a topic that I am passionate about. If we are going to breed, train, or own these types of dogs, we are responsible for the safety of everyone and anything that comes into contact with them. I think you are a man that loves his dog, and wants to do right by him. I asked you what you planned on doing with your dog. You did not really give me an answer, but said IPO was an interest. My advice to you is find an activity, any activilty, that allows your dog an outlet for the instictual compultions that have been bred into him. Please find an activity and a trainer with experience in that activity.? You can only learn so much in books and on the internet. Maybe Teus is going to England sometime?

I hope the intent and sincerity of my post gets through to everyone.

[Ian]

Pete,
I see the spirit of what you have wrote as. These dogs can be dangerous, so therefore you need? Vigilance at all times.? I agree with you entirely, thank you for the reminding me, it doesn't do any harm to be reminded.
You have made some assumptions, but I don't see any gain from picking you up on those.
The overall gist of your post, I'm with you.

[Pete Mitchell]

An explination for my passion here:

I am very close to becomming a police officer. When you are trained in this capacity, a large part of your training falls on SAFTEY When dealing with weapons(dogs included) Saftey is of the utmost importance. I am a big stickler for safe dog handling.
I offer this challenge to many police k9 handlers and civilians alike:
Give me any scanario of an "accidental" or "unjustified" bite that the handler could not prevent. Nobody has stumped me yet.

In California(my home state) we have a current police k9 case that has the possibility of raising the dog to same level as a gun in the use of force. Meaning a k9 bite would be considered "deadly force" If this happens in the police world, think about what that would mean to the regular citizen.

We have also had a recent vote on a proposition outlawing certain breeds of dogs.(it was aimed at pit bulls). It was ruled that we could not ban a specific breed, but that governement agiencies:animal control (who are very limited in their knowlege of "dog aggression") could force someone to spay or nueter their dog if it is deemed "dangerous". Can we see the slippery slope we are headed down.

If a police dog is considered "deadly force" and a Malinios breeder is forced to alter their dog because it killed the neighbors cat, what is next? I don't know what it is like for you guys in other countries, but it is getting very scary over here in the states. I believe safe dog handling is the most important thing we can do to stop this type of progression that threatens our dogs and our sports!

 Ian, I apologize for you catching the heat. I hope I do not discourage you from posting and continuing to ask questions. If I did that, I would be part of the problem, not part of the solution. I wish you luck and success with your dog.

? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Christian

[heldengebroed]

First off all pete it isn't 30 years that the Mals are bred for bitework. It is almost a century. I have possible traces off ancesters of my dog going back to 1946

Secondly, here is some filosophy:
Dog and man made an armed truce about 10000 years ago but both sides are still armed. Look at the teeth off your dog and you'll understand what i'm talking about.

Are dogs potential dangerous; Yes they are. So it is up to the handler to provide a "secure" environment where the possibilities of accidents happening are as low as possible. If people don't act on this accidents happen. Why do you think that the numbre off accidents with golden retrievers is so high?

It is people that are unaware off these 2 points that male the world dangerous for certain breeds and for themselves

Greetings


Johan

[malndobe]

I hate to break it to everyone but WORKING LINES OF MALINIOS ARE NOT HERDING DOGS ANYMORE!!! Of course they can, and many do, but every herding trainer I have talked to say the problem they have with Malinios are they are too aggressive towards the animals.

Although I agreed with a lot of what you said, I have to disagree with this.? And so do my herding instructors :-)? Using 5 or 6 different instructors over the years now, I have taken all but 1 or 2 of my Malinois, all working dogs, out herding at some point in their lives.? And all of my dogs have been very good at it.? Yes, the first reaction of most of them is to want to grip the sheep, that's the first reaction of almost any dog being introduced to sheep.? But they quickly learn that's not how this job is done, and I've never had a problem with excessive gripping.
My current instructor LOVES the working line Malinois, and wants to get one some day.? She loves them because of their HIGH drives, and their character.? Because if the livestock charges them, tries to stomp them, or gets in a good hard kick, the dogs don't give up but come right back and keep doing their job.? These are the same reasons my other instructors liked the dogs.? Plenty of drive to do the work, but controllable around the livestock, with the grit to keep working when conditions are less than ideal.
Calice du Dantero - FRII

Henzo de la Ailzallerie - FRIII

"Echo" - SchIII (Friends dog, Turcodos son, first time on sheep)

Dantero's Red River Rapids - FRBrt (Elgos granddaughter, first time on sheep)

[Ian]

Pete, you reaction to this post is out of proportion and gone about in not such a helpful way.? I will give you an example, to illustrate my point.
If you scratch another car whilst you'r trying to park your car this is careless driving, but this is very different, to speeding through a built-up area.? Both of them are careless driving, but on totally different scales. Scratching? the car does not get the dog band.
It's interesting to hear what's happening where you live, but it does not relate to my scenario, of which you know nothing about, and Our laws are very different to yours.? I am happy to explain the scenario but do not see it necessary, because I know myself whether it is really reckless or not, that has nothing to do with the technique of training a dog.

Think about this, if you see and understand more, then someone else who is asking questions.? Would it not be better to ask them questions, which will prompt them to see their own answers.? If you're standing up there on your soapbox how can we work together.
A good example of where you could of ask questions, instead of saying this.

 

"My advice to you is find an activity, any activilty, that allows your dog an outlet for the instictual compultions that have been bred into him. Please find an activity and a trainer with experience in that activity.? You can only learn so much in books and on the internet. Maybe Teus is going to England sometime?"

You See Because, You don't know? how many times a week I trainer, or who I train with, or what I train for.? It is not bad advice you have given, but you see you're not working with me, and if you are sincere , (which I am not questioning) then working together is a necessity for learning.
Good luck with your new career

[sculpadog]

Maybe Teus is going to England sometime?

Won't happen: never ever.

I don't want to generalize but I do regret the day I have done business with UK people. The day I will land a foot in UK again is unthinkable for there are too many morons { } out there.

The few good UK people always are welcome in my hometown in Holland. Always !!