Dogs are either trained in prey or in fight. Serious people (like me) focus dogs fighting people/decoy and not focus prey. But sporty people would prefer the prey thus make the dog see stuff as game. Nothing is wrong with either fight or prey: real or game. Everybody trains their dogs that way that fits them. Some questions about one style, system, method seems okay to me, but an attack based on no knowledge is worthless.
Beside that: dogs aren't stupid as many might think. A dog (-policedogs-) proven to be perfect in real world with no hesitations in biting real would bite sleeve in training. Simple minded people think those dogs only do have prey focus.
Let's be nice to each other and don't brag one discipline being better than others; one country being more wise than others.
That?s exactly what I meant in one of my previous answer when stating that we aren?t all talking about the same type of dog.
I made my choice. I prefer the serious type to the prey type and I practice sports with a dog that works in fight drive. It would be easier to take a sporty type, because they are much easier to handle, but I don?t like this (of course this is MY choice).
However, I never attack people who love the sporty type. Everybody should enjoy what he?s doing and work the type of dog he likes. Training is training and no matter the discipline or the type of dog, competing high level means a lot of work and deserves respect!! And respecting someone else?s work also means not talking bad about them (even if you don?t share the same opinion or don?t like his dog) and this is what I always try to do.
Unfortunately I experienced several times already that not everybody shares this opinion.
quote: Ok, that would be clear, but tell me how is this. I saw A'tim's Korung3 video and there were exercise where decoy came with sleeve, and I guess sleeve was his prey. If he would take decoy only as enemy that would be dangerous to do this exercise, because of leg bite posibility or something? quote
I don't get it, because as far as I can remember all K?rung 3 exercises were with full suit and he always bit the leg?
Sorry Martine, bad memory. Came home and took a look. Must be mixed because dog before A'tim last exercise had with sleeve.
I think policedogs are used a bit different in belgium/holland compared to the nordic countries. In belgium ring there are no tracking and not so much nosework at all, I also think you have more spezialized dogs there, and not so much dualpurpose dogs as here. What I heard policedogs in belgium/holland also doesn?t have so much restrictions as here, the use of force with policedogs are a bit more regulated here. I guess that?s why for example the dogs in the swedish programm are supposed to out quick, or out as soon as the decoy are standing still. Not like KNPV for example where the dogs can bite passive decoys for a long time.
Then the other thing about prey and fightdrive, often these different drives are meaning different things for different people, and not all countries has the same definitions, that?s why the confussion many times I guess. Many mals in ringsports like to shake their heads and fight the decoy, but they doesn?t seem so serious or angry, some will call that preydrive, others fightingdrive. And some dogs have this great fightingdrive and also uses a bit of aggression in the work, I guess that is what americans calls fightdrive and what some dogs in belgium ring display. When I see dogs here in the Swedish programm they are often quite angry during the muzzlework, maybe more heavy in defence than just prey/fightingdrive. I guess all dogs work with a combination of different drives, some are a buit higher in defence and some using more prey and fightingdrive. Mals in generall seems to have this high preydrive and fightingdrive compared to GSDs for example, but not all show this seriousness/angrieness in the fight, at least not during the sporttrials.
I think policedogs are used a bit different in belgium/holland compared to the nordic countries. In belgium ring there are no tracking and not so much nosework at all, I also think you have more spezialized dogs there, and not so much dualpurpose dogs as here. What I heard policedogs in belgium/holland also doesn?t have so much restrictions as here, the use of force with policedogs are a bit more regulated here. I guess that?s why for example the dogs in the swedish programm are supposed to out quick, or out as soon as the decoy are standing still. Not like KNPV for example where the dogs can bite passive decoys for a long time.
A BR competition is a 25 to 30 minutes trail in which all the necessary elements a Policedog has to be able to do are tested including identifying of an object and tracking of a fugetive. I can let my dog find drugs and a real fugetive if necessary without further training.
Another mistake you make is with outing. A BR dog has to out instantly when ordered.
Many mals in ringsports like to shake their heads and fight the decoy, but they doesn?t seem so serious or angry, some will call that preydrive, others fightingdrive. And some dogs have this great fightingdrive and also uses a bit of aggression in the work, I guess that is what americans calls fightdrive and what some dogs in belgium ring display.
You're joking a Ringdog that attackes isn't serious or angry and it is all a game for him. It is not because he isn't voicing his anger that he isn't serious and i can assure you out off personal experience if a mal attacks you'd better take it serious.
When I see dogs here in the Swedish programm they are often quite angry during the muzzlework, maybe more heavy in defence than just prey/fightingdrive.
Or perhaps frustrated because they can't bite. We also have muzzle work in BR and the dogs tend to be more frustrated and voice this by barking
I think policedogs are used a bit different in belgium/holland compared to the nordic countries.
Sure they are. In Nordic countires you have many lakes and forest and less houses (where you can run along naked) and drink loads of alcohol. In Holland and Belgium there are much more people living in a square metre than, obviously, out there in cold 1000 lakes country...
In italics above I? make another stupid statement as you -Martin- tend to do.
Are you serious or are you just acting as a fool? ( )
I am serious in progress to arrange a seminar in Sweden next year. Be sure you are there and able to show me what you talk about. This is the last post I will write about this topic: it is getting stupid now?
Guys, apparrently you missunderstand me completly this time You seems to think that I was negative against ringsport with my last post. This is not so, I?m very impresssed by the belgian ringdogs, whish we could have it here also. Just trying to point out some differences, and why this differences are there. I didn?t know BR had tracking, I thought they had a search exercize after a decoy on the field. And that policedogs are used a abit different in the nordic countries, this is at least what K9 instructors told me that have been a lot in diffenetrnt countries in Europe, and also, I didn?t say our system was better than any others. Isn?t true that Policedogs in belgium/holland for the most part are trained in bitework and searchwork, and that you in a higher degree have specialized trackingdogs, not l?ke here where most Policedogs are supposed to track/search both for narcotics, bad guys or innocent children and such. I guess that?s why our programm has tracking in the woods, article search, and also serach for hidden decoys in the woods, in general more nosework than in the ringsports, different needs, different programms.
Of course BR dogs out when told, but here the dogs should out on its own as soon as the decoy stand still, probably because of different laws how much biting a dog are allowed to use on passive suspects, (policedogs in real life are of course trained to let go on command, and also attack passive suspects, but still the laws are quite strict in such events here.)
Then that malinois could be serius no doubt, but you must admit that ringsport demands a very high preydrive/fightingdrive, which is no wrong either, of course many dogs have a serious side in the fightingdrive to, depending on the induvidual dog. It?s just an observation when looking at ringsport videos and the trials I have seen here in our programm, that you have more use of the dogs defence and sharpness in our programm, just because of the very nature of the programm, with a lots of muzzlework. What type of dog someone prefer to use in servicework is induvudial choice, I guess the bad guy don?t care what "drive" the dog is working in, it hurts anyway to get bitten! I also think/heard that muzzlework in belgium and here are not using the same philosphy, BR dogs uses muzzle with a bitebar, here the traditional philosphy is that the dog shouldn?t get an outlet for his aggression by biting the bitebar/preyitem , instead he shold remain in aggression and focus his aggression on the decoy. Again it?s not about what is best, I just tried to explain the differences, and not trying to be a smart ass
Just a little explanation about BR muzzle work The muzzle we use in BR doesn?t have a bite-bar. The front of the muzzle is a steel bar, to permit the dog to give smashing punches. Therefore there is a small leather cushion inside the front part of the muzzle, to protect the dog?s nose and teeth. Depending on the dog this cushion either has a level surface, or has a small protruding nozzle that the dog can take hold of with his front teeth (to permit him to aim better at his target).
In BR we want the dog to launch himself at about 1 to 1.5m from his target and use all his strength to give just one smashing punch (we prefer the abdomen). A good puncher sure will hit you harder then Mike Tyson and hurt you pretty badly if you aren?t protected. If you watch the video ?Muzzle? on my homepage, on the page of my boy ?Fils?, you can see how the dog takes the decoy down with just one punch. This wasn?t supposed to happen It was one of the first times Fils did the muzzle exercise and thank God he was on the leash
We don?t want the dog to keep fighting with the muzzle. A muzzled dog can only hurt his victim with the first punch. Afterwards he is too close to the decoy?s body and isn?t able to give powerful punches anymore + with his muzzle he would be too vulnerable in real life situations f.i. when the target is having a weapon.
I think policedogs are used a bit different in belgium/holland compared to the nordic countries.
Sure they are. In Nordic countires you have many lakes and forest and less houses (where you can run along naked) and drink loads of alcohol. In Holland and Belgium there are much more people living in a square metre than, obviously, out there in cold 1000 lakes country...
In italics above I? make another stupid statement as you -Martin- tend to do.
Are you serious or are you just acting as a fool? ( )
I am serious in progress to arrange a seminar in Sweden next year. Be sure you are there and able to show me what you talk about.
Teus
I did not know that Sweden was called 1000 lakes country so you better be sure that you are in Sweden next year with your seminar and not in Finland
I did not know that Sweden was called 1000 lakes country so you better be sure that you are in Sweden next year with your seminar and not in Finland? ?
Theo
Good for telling me ... would be terrible mistake to show up in your frontyard when avoiding the lakes -knowing behavior of those people? - Thanks for telling me !!
BTW ... you still like it there in Finland ?? We haven't heard any from you lately, perhaps busy. Hope you aren't bored by now when winter cold comes in.
Good for telling me ... would be terrible mistake to show up in your frontyard when avoiding the lakes -knowing behavior of those people? - Thanks for telling me !!
BTW ... you still like it there in Finland ?? We haven't heard any from you lately, perhaps busy. Hope you aren't bored by now when winter cold comes in.
Teus
Yep, mistake it will be, the landowner is not too thrilled about odd strangers. Keep avoiding lakes During the winter training is just going on so no boredom here. Thanks for asking and I am very taken by your concern and it will take a while before I am on the net again since it is way to busy to fool around on the net the whole day.
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You seems to think that I was negative against ringsport with my last post. This is not so, I?m very impresssed by the belgian ringdogs, whish we could have it here also. Just trying to point out some differences, and why this differences are there. I didn?t know BR had tracking, I thought they had a search exercize after a decoy on the field. And that policedogs are used a abit different in the nordic countries, this is at least what K9 instructors told me that have been a lot in diffenetrnt countries in Europe, and also, I didn?t say our system was better than any others. Isn?t true that Policedogs in belgium/holland for the most part are trained in bitework and searchwork, and that you in a higher degree have specialized trackingdogs, not l?ke here where most Policedogs are supposed to track/search both for narcotics, bad guys or innocent children and such. I guess that?s why our programm has tracking in the woods, article search, and also serach for hidden decoys in the woods, in general more nosework than in the ringsports, different needs, different programms.
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