I also think you can be succesfull without using e-collars. The Swedish mondioteam recently placed quite well in the world championships, one winning in MR1, a fifht place in 11, and? an eight place in MR3. I would be surprised if they used e-collars when it?s not allowed here, and there is also a discussion on the Swedish mondioclub homepage abiut e-collars. They said they have seen much e-collar use in Europe, some bad some god, but the point of the discussion was that you can be succesfull without them, and people from other countries often ask how they train and use for methods and such.
Martin. I do not agree with your what you wrote. Your thinking is missing the point of what Martine and Danny said (actually I say the same as they do !)
Do you use any mechanical means to teach or reinforce what you want your dog to do? For example do you ever use a little tap on the collar to guide the dog - maybe to make it a little straighter? If you use any mechanical method like someone touching you lightly on your shoulder when you work with the dog then you can use the e-collar at level one.
For instance, I always use little taps with my tab leash on the dog's fur saver. Only strong enough to hear the metal clicking - not to punish the dog. Say I want the dog to finish quickly and straight. I have the dog in front and I give the command to finish - along with vocal encouragement to go, go, go, I also tap, tap, tap the dog until it is finished properly. Then I reward with a toy and/or food and praise. I want speed and precision.
Training with Ballon I realized that I could use the e-collar in exactly the same way. And the e-collar would be more effective because it is a consitant, precise stimulus.
As professional trainer in all disciplines and real street work I can tell for sure no one trainer never ever use anything as compulsion. Motivational training is good but not the solution of everything. Of course it is great the Swedisch team performed nice on MR (why shouldn't you brag !) but that was and is no point of argument here.
As Danny and Martine very well explained: e-collar isn't used -not by them- as compulsion but motivational.
---- Yes Danny, you got the point very well: why not use e-collar the same way as I use leash corrections ? My answer is simple: I understand leash corrections (soft tabs; 'pops' that is) better than e-collar. Beside that: being mechanical myself I 'feel' where the dog still needs to be shaped. --being born lazy quality of my dogs would drop downwards when I use remote control? -- ---
In fact I have seen much abuse of dogs with slip collar, as much if not more than abuse of dogs with e-collar. Not to speak about how I had to yell at handlers abusing their dogs with food.?
Maybe I?m missing the point I think I understand the concept of "guiding" the dog as described. But if someone learns a dog to sit, come, not jump on people and such with e-collars, isn?t this just negative reinforcement. You push a button, the dogs feels discomfort, when he sits you releaze the button, or is this just "stimulation", is it not compulsion? I don?t say Danny and martine does this, but many articles about e-collar training describe such use, and describe it as humane and even the best method of training. I can?t see how that beat the power of a strong leadership, motivationaltraining, and if needed ordinary leashcorrections. I think we all can agree on that all tools can be missused , but some are more dangerous than others when it comes to screwing upp dogs, at least it takes a bit longer with an ordinary leash insetad of an e-collar, and the dog has the chance to fight back
And you are right about compulsion, of course dogs sometimes need to be corrected, and the best trainer here also use that. Then all corrections doesn?t have to involve pain, sometimes that even make the dogs even more uncontrollable and aggressive, as I?m sure you know. But it?s my understanding that the better trainers here emphazis more the generall controll and leadership over the dog, before they increase the drives. A different philosophy I guess when it comes to protectionwork than maybe other countries in Europe, where heavy use of compulsion with e-collars or prongs are more acceptable, and many learns the dog to go crazy for bitework, and then demands the dog to out and such with the use of heavy compulsion.
I never use the e-collar to learn simple things such as sit, walk on a leash or not jumping on people, because my dogs know these things before I ever start working them. These are the exercises you easily can teach your dog when he still is a pup, using rewards.
quote: But it?s my understanding that the better trainers here emphazis more the generall controll and leadership over the dog, before they increase the drives.
Sorry, but I don't understand this very well. I'm used to working dogs that have the necessary character and drive genetically so I never have to increase it. It just is there from the start. No offense, but I don't think this is a statement of someone who ever has been confronted with a really dominant dog. I don't want to start another discussion, but I think the type of dog we're familiar with is completely different. Ring requires another type of dog then IPO or obedience. That's why it is very important to be correct with a dog right from the start. And this means starting early! A dominant 6 months old dog can be pretty difficult to handle, but there is no comparison with a "wild" 15 mths old adult dog that has no respect.
than maybe other countries in Europe, where heavy use of compulsion with e-collars or prongs are more acceptable, and many learns the dog to go crazy for bitework, and then demands the dog to out and such with the use of heavy compulsion.
Martine and sculpa, I think you missunderstod me. When I said "increase the drives" before demanding strict controll and a clear head of the dog I was thinking of the training in KNPV or sometimes SCH, maybe ring is different. The things I?ve heard from people watching KNPV-training they often said young dogs watch the adults train, sometimes a decoy tease them a bit to make them a bit "hot", after that period when the dog is about a year old they learn the dogs to bite and grow mentaly, no thought about outing on command, just drag them of the bite, then after that period when the dogs are biting really good control are demanded, I guess the dogs are very motivated to bite at that time and a bit stressed so they aren?t always so clear in the head, thats why quite strong compulsion are used by many.
Maybe this isn?t correct, but that?s the info I heard from people watching KNPV-training. That?s what I meant when I said that in some countries heavy use of compulsion are more acceptable, because it?s just more common. I rememeber one of the dutch forum members, Bjorn, decribed they have an "e-collar set" on some KNPV-clubs, and some dogs even pee on themselves because of the high compulsion used. If people should watch that type of training here in Sweden people would go hysterical I guess. E-collars are banned, the workingclubs even have a written policy that the training should be humane and not brutal, and not including e-collars or even prongs I think, for civilian competitions.
And naturally, the people here training in mondio or the swedish programm also want as much genetic ability as possible, the mals here are from the same workinglines you have, so I can?t see the dogs are so different. What I heard differs, at least from KNPV, is that they from early on emphazis controll, like Martine said, don?t allowing bad habits or dominance occur, and in protectionwork tries to keep the dog clear in his head so they don?t get to excited and stressed up so real heavy compulsion is the only way to get the dogs attention back to his handler.
Basically, I don?t think the dogs are so different from yours, just a bit different culture when it comes to how the training should be performed, or what tools are acceptable and allowed.
The things I?ve heard from people watching KNPV-training...
Maybe this isn?t correct, but that?s the info I heard from people watching KNPV-training...
E-collars are banned, the workingclubs even have a written policy that the training should be humane and not brutal, and not including e-collars or even prongs I think, for civilian competitions.
Sorry clumsy quoting. But maybe you should talk to people really training KNPV first?
E-collar is very humane and eventhough I was strongly against it earlier, I finally understand, that the electricity is not the thing thatcomes out of the plug, kills people and fries criminals. Actually the suitable power is excellent for your own muscles stimulated open. It is just tickling feeling. And when it is adjusted to dog, they start on the state, when dogs ear just moves like there is a fly on the tip of the ear.
Kerosin to the flames of hysteria is not needed. Knowledge will put the flames down.
J
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Coffee and love are something you just can't warm up again.
The things I?ve heard from people watching KNPV-training they often said young dogs watch the adults train, sometimes a decoy tease them a bit to make them a bit "hot", after that period when the dog is about a year old they learn the dogs to bite and grow mentaly, no thought about outing on command, just drag them of the bite, then after that period when the dogs are biting really good control are demanded, I guess the dogs are very motivated to bite at that time and a bit stressed so they aren?t always so clear in the head, thats why quite strong compulsion are used by many.
Bjorn, decribed they have an "e-collar set" on some KNPV-clubs, and some dogs even pee on themselves because of the high compulsion used.
Sadly this is correct about most KNPV training at most clubs training old school (par force). However more and more people in KNPV are training the modern way, not all but most. And yes, Par force training with e-collar is very cruel; not the way described by Danny.
But not in SchH (IPO) or Ring: in there control and lot of obedience is needed. You won't see that old school anymore.
Basically, I don?t think the dogs are so different from yours, just a bit different culture when it comes to how the training should be performed, or what tools are acceptable and allowed.? ?
A dog is a dog.?
But Marin: be careful with what you say because it sounds like only in Sweden they know how to train dogs, even the real dominant ones. That I can't and won't believe. I never have seen Swedisch program myself -some video of trials- and I must say I am not impressed by the muzzle work nor control. But I won't judge if haven't seen in real (or even felt in real) myself. So be careful with statements like that: it only does set wrong blood.
I train with an e-collar and have found out that this is a powerfull tool. I have had this discussion about animal cruelty numerous times. The best way to end the discussion( but unfortunatly not possible by the net) is to take off the collar and to " punnish" first myself and secondly the other party involved in the discussion. Reactions as "it tickles" and "is that all" are the only reply i get. People hear Electricity and they think instantly back to the moments that they encountered it eg were shocked by 220 volt or while touching a fince around the field. Those aren't comparable with an e-collar at all. I had deep musscle massage last year and the intencity of the sencation of that "electrical" massage was far worse than the sensation i have when i test the E-collar on its working level. By banning it a very usefull tool is dismissed and other alternatives have to be found.
I completely agree! That is just how it happened to me and after amazement I started to laugh when I understood that I had been stupid being scared of ghosts and rumours.
Reality sometimes even cures your jammed back
J
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Coffee and love are something you just can't warm up again.
Agree sculpa, I?m sure/know there are many competent trainers outside Sweden I guess germany/holland /belgium have a little bad reputation here when it comes to protectiontraining/obedience just because there are more people in general still using the tools for high compulsion, to compensate for their lack of knowledge about motivational training and "curing" problems they have created themselfs, like raisning the activitylevel/stress to much in the dog so it losses its clear head, or not stress the fact that the dog should be under strict controll, so the handler has the dog in his hand, and not the other way around. The type of training that people used here also, some does still I guess in "secret", when e-collars/prongs were allowed.
Then I have no problem with the use of an e-collar when it?s used right by proffesionals like described in this discussion, alternative methods are used here I guess to get the same effect, as long as it works and are not a quick/fix or inhumane it?s not a big deal. Then peole could have different opinions if it is the best method to train with or not. The power of the e-collar must be the strange sensation to the dog, this "tickle" that for a human is not a big deal, apparantly have quite strong effect on a dog that doesn?t know what this "force" is and what it comes from. I guess that?s why I think it?s not for the ordinary petowner, just because it only tickles doesn?t mean it totally harmless,or?
Regarding the swedish programm, it?s hard to compare different programms, apples and oranges I guess. Ring/KNPV has very flashy bitework which suit the malinois fine with it?s high preydrive, our programm are more a practical type steeming from policeuse, with tracking,searching/articlesearch and some bitework. But regarding the muzzlework and controll I don?t know if I can agree with you sculpadog. To my knowledge no other programm has so much muzzlework, and the controll is very strict, both in the muzzle and sleeve, no tolerance for dirty work and the outs should be very fast.
Regarding the swedish programm, it?s hard to compare different programms, apples and oranges I guess. Ring/KNPV has very flashy bitework which suit the malinois fine with it?s high preydrive, our programm are more a practical type steeming from policeuse, with tracking,searching/articlesearch and some bitework. But regarding the muzzlework and controll I don?t know if I can agree with you sculpadog. To my knowledge no other programm has so much muzzlework, and the controll is very strict, both in the muzzle and sleeve, no tolerance for dirty work and the outs should be very fast.
Like this:
Snapshot of a training scenario of Beyond Boundaries with Police in USA.
---
Kidding aside>>
We are on the same page now, I do read you better this way.
Very nice remark of you: The power of the e-collar must be the strange sensation to the dog, this "tickle" that for a human is not a big deal, apparantly have quite strong effect on a dog that doesn?t know what this "force" is and what it comes from.
Regarding the swedish programm, it?s hard to compare different programms, apples and oranges I guess. Ring/KNPV has very flashy bitework which suit the malinois fine with it?s high preydrive, our programm are more a practical type steeming from policeuse, with tracking,searching/articlesearch and some bitework. But regarding the muzzlework and controll I don?t know if I can agree with you sculpadog. To my knowledge no other programm has so much muzzlework, and the controll is very strict, both in the muzzle and sleeve, no tolerance for dirty work and the outs should be very fast.
I don't know the swedish program but i invite you to find me one thing that a policedog has to do that isn't in one form or another pressent in BR Don't forget that modern policework with dogs originates from ringsport
On another point Ring being preydriven (I talk about BR). I was under the impression that with the statick work of the decoy, due to the heavy costume, the BR dogs worked primarily in fightdrive.
I agree with Johan. Personally I don't like dogs that bite out of prey drive. To me a dog has to have "a heart" and a lot of courage. I don't want him to see his work as a game. He should regard the decoy as an enemy he has to attack, not as a buddy he wants to play with.
Personally I don't like dogs that bite out of prey drive. To me a dog has to have "a heart" and a lot of courage. I don't want him to see his work as a game. He should regard the decoy as an enemy he has to attack, not as a buddy he wants to play with.
Ok, that would be clear, but tell me how is this. I saw A'tim's Korung3 video and there were exercise where decoy came with sleeve, and I guess sleeve was his prey. If he would take decoy only as enemy that would be dangerous to do this exercise, because of leg bite posibility or something?
quote: Ok, that would be clear, but tell me how is this. I saw A'tim's Korung3 video and there were exercise where decoy came with sleeve, and I guess sleeve was his prey. If he would take decoy only as enemy that would be dangerous to do this exercise, because of leg bite posibility or something? quote
I don't get it, because as far as I can remember all K?rung 3 exercises were with full suit and he always bit the leg?
There is no such thing as "prey" for A'Tim. He bites what he reaches first. Normally he bites the leg, but he won't hesitate to take the arm, the chest or the belly if he gets to one of these first.
A'Tim is a very civil type of dog. He is very good to his own family but very dangerous for people he doesn't know. It took me several months before I could take him out for a walk when we just got him (and I'm used to handling working dogs for years).
He never "plays". He is very fond of me, but I'd never risk to play with him, even off the field, because this would be very dangerous. Sometimes I'd like so much to really hug him or play with him, but this simply isn't possible. He is no pet. As soon as he feels the control is less he takes advantage of this and in his case this means danger.
Nevertheless he lives in the house with us since he is retired and this works very well as long as we keep the control very strict.
I know he wouldn't suit many people, because of his dominance, but this is a choice we made when buying him and I never regretted it!
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I think I understand the concept of "guiding" the dog as described. But if someone learns a dog to sit, come, not jump on people and such with e-collars, isn?t this just negative reinforcement. You push a button, the dogs feels discomfort, when he sits you releaze the button, or is this just "stimulation", is it not compulsion? I don?t say Danny and martine does this, but many articles about e-collar training describe such use, and describe it as humane and even the best method of training. I can?t see how that beat the power of a strong leadership, motivationaltraining, and if needed ordinary leashcorrections. I think we all can agree on that all tools can be missused , but 
