Could someone explain how the e-collar is used by e-collar gurus like bart ballon and such. I don?t know much about this type of training, have read some articles on the net of low stimulation training with e-collars from USA, but it?s hard to judge when you never see it in person I guess. Are e-collars such wondertools like these americans seems to believe, or are the people right who says e-collar is for trainers who can?t train a dog with traditional methods, and is no tool that should be used for almost everything, like many do in USA.
Since e-collars are a powerful tool, when abused or misused, they are awful. Most people I have seen use e-collar are awful. I feel very sad for the dogs.
Personally I always stayed away from the e-collar until I trained with Ballon. His use of the collar was the most intelligent and effective method of dog training I have ever witnessed. I do not hurt my dogs to train them. My dogs are my friends first. I found Bart's method to be very respectful of the dog and a clear form of communication that did not make the dog anxious. The dogs showed no signs of stress.
Bart uses innotek which is not a very hot collar. He uses it at level 1 which you or I cannot feel on our wrist. He never goes above level 3. This is very low stimulation. So it does not hurt the dog but the dog understands very clearly and therefore there is no conflict in the dog's mind.
If you have a chance, try to go to a Bart seminar. That would be the best way to learn.
Learning about intelligent e-collar use on the Net is not a good idea.
I live in a country where it?s not allowed with E-collars, so I?m not planning to use one, or feel the need either. Just intressted if e-collars are the training device from God that you can start to believe when some american E-collar trainers describe their methods. I think the use is wrong when used for everything, like learning to sit or don?t jump on people and such basic obedience stuff, why don?t train such things without using negative reinforcment, or just use common canine knowledge, and don?t push on a button for all this things. Another thing I?m wondering about is how important canine/training knowledge and ability to understand and communicate with your dog with use of your voice and bodylanguage are when training with an e-collar? Isn?t the basic principle of e-collar training that the dog should learn to shut of the stim when he perform the right way? In other words, the dog is more trained by the collar than the handler and his ability, the respect for and wanting to please the handler are not so important, because it is this "unseen force", the stim, that the dog has learnt to avoid by his actions.
To me the e-collar is one of the most wonderful tools to train a dog but you have to use your brains while using it and not just push the button whenever you like.
Effective e-collar training takes a lot of experience. We are using it for about 15 years now and it works perfectly. It is a tool to interact with your dog from a distance. Therefore the low stimulations are very important indeed. Very important is to make sure that a dog knows his exercise perfectly before you correct him with the e-collar. If not, he won't understand why he is corrected and he'll get confused. Our dogs have always been trained with the e-collar and if you watch them working you'll see that they enjoy it enormously and have full confidence in their handler!
Bart Bellon is one of the most experienced people with e-collar training in the world. He is a good friend of ours and we use the same training methods. We also use the low impulses whenever possible and it works great! But with dominant dogs it sometimes is necessary to push the heavy button too. And believe me Danny, Bart knows this button very well too (just ask Zodt) but he ONLY uses it when necessary.
so basically you use it for corrections on long distance? I also heard e-collars are used to "guide" the dog in training, how does this work, and are the dog supposed to know that the stimulation comes from the handler or not? Some hunters I talked too are not so fond about e-collars because they are afraid that it can effect breeds in a negative way. The inborn trainability and will to please they value in a huntingdog can get lost if people start to train to much with e-collars, because with an e-collar even the most "thickskinned" and knucklehead of a dog can get his titles on huntingtrials and such. They used the hunting lab in USA as an example, which are a breed where E-collars are used very much, and mentioned that the american hunting lab is not so trainable and willing to please as the UK variant. I guess maybe this also is true for the malinois, e-collars make dogs who are hard to train with traditional methods trainable, and in a fast time to?
Personally I always stayed away from the e-collar until I trained with Ballon. His use of the collar was the most intelligent and effective method of dog training I have ever witnessed.
When I train a dog, I only have one goal: reach top level. So why would I stick to old time methods, when better training tools are available??
It doesn't have anything to do with the breed. Ok, you have to have dog that loves working, has a clear head and tough character and ability to take a lot of stress, but these qualities just are necessary when you want to reach a high level.
quote: The inborn trainability and will to please they value in a huntingdog can get lost if people start to train to much with e-collars
Sorry, but if this happens, you have been using the e-collar wrong or the dog can't take the stress so just isn't good enough.
It isn't possible to explain the use of the e-collar in one single mail. This takes years of training and observation. I'd suggest that you try to attend some e-collar seminars or train with people who are used to the technique.
I, personally, will not discuss in detail how to train with an e-collar on the internet. The collar is too powerful a tool and I have seen way too many dogs being abused with them - which is - sadly - common in the protection sports. I'd rather people did not use them at all. If you come to my club in San Diego I will discuss what I know and show you how we do it. I would recommend that you go to a seminar of Bart Ballon's or go train with Martine and Joao in Belgium. These people understand how to use the collar in a way that not only works, but is also ethical. They have proven that they know what they are doing by the results achieved by their dogs. I have seen the technique with my own eyes. It works.?
Forever I thought the collar was an unethical tool to use in training a dog. Like a sharpened pinch collar. Bart Ballon taught me differently.
Because the collar can be the best tool it can also be the worst tool.
As for the video clip that Teus refers to; the collar on Bico's waist is there from earlier training. The receiver is actually on top of Bico's back. We use it in the rear transport. First we teach Bico what the stimulation in that area means using a mechanical technique and then we transition to the electronic when it is clear that Bico understands the stimulation. Bico is very difficult to control. We use this strategy on no other dogs in the club. It is unnecessary.
As Martine said earlier, before you ever use the e-collar the dog must know the exercise perfectly. You must teach the dog using clicker or whatever other 'mechanical' means perfectly before you can use the collar. When the 'mechanical' is perfect, then you can transition to the 'electronic'.
(7 week old male Malinois - Temple of the Tree's Alligator - with 8 week old male Bouvier yesterday.)
As Martine said earlier, before you ever use the e-collar the dog must know the exercise perfectly. You must teach the dog using clicker or whatever other 'mechanical' means perfectly before you can use the collar. When the 'mechanical' is perfect, then you can transition to the 'electronic'.
Excellent reply. I think these answers must be well enough for Martin who had those questions.
Personally I know the power of e-collar and due to a friend who use it the perfect way. However I still never ever would use it: to me a dog is my partner, my friend, not a tool which has to be controlled by a tool. Just my opinion.
One of best threads regarding e-collar on internet!
The reality behind ecollars, you take dog, idiot and ecollar and you get disaster. You take a person who knows what he/she is doing, good dog and good ecollar and you get great results.
E-collars are not for everyday people at least by my opinion since they can be easily abused. Seen it done and seen some top trainers abuse it..
Nice read I must say.
Bye, Raven
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I would just like to add and stress from first hand experience training compusivley with an E-collar. I have not trained a dog using more humane techniques yet (still learning) but i have abused a malinois with an e-collar. the results were horrible, flat, scared, reluctant dog. He did not hate me, but he sure did not enjoy my company either. luckily my male malinois is a chicken and has zero temper otherwise i am sure i would have some scars to prove that training with electronic pain does not work. 1.5 years later after ceasing use of the collar. I am still regaining trust and repairing my relationship with this dog. He is not of working caliber (show lines) but he is still my friend. I feel awful for what I did with that collar. I imagine if i had a friend and he always electracuted me, I would not be as forgiving nor tolerant.[center][/center]
However I still never ever would use it: to me a dog is my partner, my friend, not a tool which has to be controlled by a tool.
I understand what you are writing Teus. I know where you are coming from. I agree with you 100%.
Do you use any mechanical means to teach or reinforce what you want your dog to do? For example do you ever use a little tap on the collar to guide the dog - maybe to make it a little straighter? If you use any mechanical method like someone touching you lightly on your shoulder when you work with the dog then you can use the e-collar at level one.
For instance, I always use little taps with my tab leash on the dog's fur saver. Only strong enough to hear the metal clicking - not to punish the dog. Say I want the dog to finish quickly and straight. I have the dog in front and I give the command to finish - along with vocal encouragement to go, go, go, I also tap, tap, tap the dog until it is finished properly. Then I reward with a toy and/or food and praise. I want speed and precision.
Training with Ballon I realized that I could use the e-collar in exactly the same way. And the e-collar would be more effective because it is a consitant, precise stimulus.
I have never trained with any successful trainer that uses less force or compulsion than I do in the 3 phases of IPO. Even now that I use the e-collar I still believe this to be true. And I am proud of this fact.
I couldn?t agree more with Danny and Teus. An e-collar is an excellent tool, but using it CORRECTLY needs a lot of experience. Inaccurate use must be avoided in any way, because it can bring irreparable damage to a dog.
Don?t just buy a collar and start pushing the button but try to attend a seminar or train with experienced people. I?m not sure but doesn?t Innotek provide a training dvd with the collars too?
I also prefer to work with rewards, but with a dominant dog this just doesn?t work all the time. Sooner or later he?ll try to take the lead and then you just have to show him respect. This doesn?t mean hurt him, but you have to be able to remind him of his work, even at a distance. For this purpose E-collars are a perfect tool.
I also prefer the e-collar to manual punishment because the provocation is less with the collar (important to avoid handler aggression) and you can perfectly balance it. No risk to hurt the dog. A dominant dog will be easier to control and a softer one won?t lose confidence in his handler.
Many people also ask us why we use a belly-collar. This certainly isn?t meant to hurt the dog! Like Danny already explained, we use it to teach a dog to go backwards (small impulse). We also use it to teach a dog to stand up. A small impulse on the belly makes a dog stand up without stepping forward (like he says: ?hey what?s the tickling there??). Positions have to be performed at exactly the same spot in BR, so to us it is important that he doesn?t step forward while standing up.
The belly-collar also is used to teach very dominant dogs to out. When this type of dog gets an impulse in the neck, he thinks this comes from the decoy. He doesn?t accept this from a stranger, goes berserk and doesn?t out at all anymore. With the belly-collar, the impulse comes from behind (where the handler is) and he?ll accept that.
Conclusion: If you want to work with e-collar, ?look before you leap?, gather information, observe experienced trainers, make sure the dog knows his exercise before you use the collar and try to use the lowest possible impulse. I?ve heard so called ?trainers? ?boast? about always pushing highest level and their dog being able to take this. BULLSHIT! If your dog only needs level 1, then DON?T use level 2.
Ok, I think I got the basic of how it works. I?m not going to use an e-collar, not allowed here, just curious how it works. However, I still think it?s absurd when people use the e-collar for everything and evrey kind of dog and say it?s so humane and such. How could it be more humane to learn a dog simple obedience and manners with an e-collar, instead of using positive methods and just learning to being the packleader of the dog, it seems many compensate their own lack of canine behaviour and training/learning with the use of an e-collar instead.
I also think you can be succesfull without using e-collars. The Swedish mondioteam recently placed quite well in the world championships, one winning in MR1, a fifht place in 11, and an eight place in MR3. I would be surprised if they used e-collars when it?s not allowed here, and there is also a discussion on the Swedish mondioclub homepage abiut e-collars. They said they have seen much e-collar use in Europe, some bad some god, but the point of the discussion was that you can be succesfull without them, and people from other countries often ask how they train and use for methods and such.
Also the handler of one of the more succesfull malinois in the Swedish defenceprogramm, Lei anns ture,once said to me that you can get very far with motivational methods and just your bodylanguage and voice, and if you from the start of training has a good relationship and communication with your dog not much compulsion is needed. And he has a very good control of his dog in bitework, and the controllaspect of the swedish programm is very high, but he uses no e-collars or prongs either when correcting his dog in his own words, so I guess the most important thing to be succesfull is not a question of certain tools you can use, other factors are much more important.
As, Martine said, handlers who braggs about how high level of pain their dog can takes, isn?t this nearly always a case of bad training? Even I, which are a bit of a novice, understands that if you have been putting a dog in very high drive, so he is stressed up the max to get a bite, and on the same time have a lack of communication and leadership over such a dog, of course you need high level of pain to take the dog down in drive again. And if a dog is so hard and dominant, that even with a perfect uppbringing and trainer, still needs high level of pain to obey, is that really something to strive for?
How could it be more humane to learn a dog simple obedience and manners with an e-collar, instead of using positive methods and just learning to being the packleader of the dog
Yes, this is how we "Swedish" people think!? Here are alot of excellent obedience competitiors!
Btw.. I talked to people in Slovenia who compeeted in obedience on the WC level (I think it was IPO obedience). They told me people from Sweden made fun of them because their dogs didn`t work with waiving tails..LOL?
Nice reading here by the way..
hunden
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(just ask Zodt) but he ONLY uses it when necessary. 
Here are alot of excellent obedience competitiors!
