I'm not a great fan of dogshows. Why, because i don't see the utility of it for a working breed like ours. I've seen to many disasters with other workingbreeds and the shows i visited were not up to 'standards' with expert judges judging against standards and judging more the handler than the dog. So that's my point of view but i was wondering what is the motivation and goals of the showpeople
1. I find looks important. The breed standard also describes what a dog should look like and therefore this should be measured. I have a problem with dogs who are by pedigree BSD but by appearance have very little resemblense to what the breed should look like.
2. I find it fun. I have already met a lot of people at shows or at show training.
3. Here I can look for dogs who could be the possible parents of my future dog.
I understand your comment. It is a hard and envious world where not always the best dog wins either because of favoritism or because the judge does not like your type of dog. But you know this upfront and if you cannot live with this then you should not compete.
Directly you cannot earn any money but if you have a male and he is good, he might/will be asked to sire a litter for which you will be paid. If you have a kennel, you can promote your kennel in a certain way.
But, contrary to what people think, showing a BSD is not easy since he has to be shown "au naturel" meaning the dogs paws etc. cannot be positioned. And then an experienced handler is able to present a dog who is not so good in such a way that his mistakes are less visible.
So basicly the reason why I compete in show is propably the same as why you compete in ring: you find it important for the breed and you enjoy it.
Saskia
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He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
As you Johan I am not fan of dog shows but I think that they must exist. As character and everything else that is good for work must be in mind of breeders so is looks.
Why shows? hm, than you have to ask why work and why not hearding. This dogs are Shepherds aren't they? So why do you "just" work ring sport with them and don't take them hearding?
I understand your point of view but would you rather have a dog that looks more like german shephard or an x malinois and works great but does not fit into standard because his looks are so changed?
Best regards, Raven
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Do not condemn the judgment of another because it differs from your own. You may both be wrong. ~Dandemis
First i tested my dog in herding. My uncle has a few hundred sheep and i took him with me.apparently he has the"look" of a good sheppard (my dog, i'm not so sure about my uncle)
Why not a GSD? Have you ever seen pre-WOI pictures of GSD's? They look a lot like a Mal; more rectangular but with a black sadle. It is shows that have made them what they are now adays.
Ringdogs aren't per definition badlooking. Some are but my experiance is that the Mals that work that i've seen are capable of entering a showring and not making a fool of themselfes. EG in NVBK national championship category 2 i saw one dog which looked more like a gsd than a mal and if i'm not mistaken he is quiting the ring.
If you look at a mal and a groenendaeler. Which have the same standard except for the coat. In reality these are 2 totaly different type of dogs. The first one is more 'rude' and the later is more polished with a slender head etc. Again if you take old pictures you'll see that the old groenendaelers looked more like the mals. Why... In my point of view shows.
First i tested my dog in herding. My uncle has a few hundred sheep and i took him with me.apparently he has the"look" of a good sheppard (my dog, i'm not so sure about my uncle)
You tested your dog but still you are not herding with your dog as much as you work ring. You have a shepherd which is not herding. My point in previous post was that Belgians are not only for Ring that they are for herding and so on.
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Why not a GSD? Have you ever seen pre-WOI pictures of GSD's? They look a lot like a Mal; more rectangular but with a ?black sadle. It is shows that have made them what they are now adays.
If you like GSD than get one. I?m not trying to be rude but if you like them so much get one. The fact is that all breeds change, some to better some to worst. If you compare standards of this two breeds I?m guessing that they are very different.
The solution to this problem is everything should be combined. Show + Work. If you go only one way you get what you aimed for. So you can make Belgians work dogs and destroy their looks or go for shows and destroy their work capability.
Combination would be the answer at least I belive so.
As hard as it is conviencing you to start showing that hard is to convience show people to work. If work people will pull to one side and show people to other at the end there will be more breeds. Like GSD you have show line (I hate the look of that back) and work line.
Johan I hope you will not take this post wrong way. I am not here to offend you in any way, this is just my opinion and I am not forcing you to change yours.
Friendly regards, Raven
« Last Edit: October 25, 2004, 06:27:51 AM by Raven »
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Do not condemn the judgment of another because it differs from your own. You may both be wrong. ~Dandemis
In order to do herding you need the place time and sheep to do so. I don't have any of them,so....
It was prof Reul who created Belgian Ring as an alternative usage of the BS as a working dog. He saw the changed environment and realised that the dogs had to get another 'job' in order to survive as a breed.
I don't like GSD's my point was and is that due to exageration of show people the GSD has changed so much over the last 80 years or so that it has become useless as a working dog.
I'll give another excample: Last year i got in touch, totaly by accident, with a guy in Ireland who bred Irish setters. I liked his dogs and proud as he was he showed me photographs of the dogs that his family had bred and were used as an excample for the official standard. His dogs are the same but if he presents them on a show he will be placed last...If on the other hand he anounces on a trail that he is going to breed he has dozens of canditates for a puppy. Who is wrong here??
There several excamples out there of breeds that have been distroyed by excageration.
So i rest with my point Why shows and what are their goals. I can't get it !
Dogs bred for conformation are not by definition useless for working. It depends on how you define working. You said yourself that Prof. Ad. Reul created Belgian Ring to give the breed another working purpose as society was changing. Well society has changed further and although people in IPO and Ring do not like to hear this, working with a dog for people nowadays is not only biting disciplines but also obedience, agility, etc. The current BSD is right at the top of the world in these newly develloped disciplines. I know a lot of people who would like to see Ring and IPO restricted to only people who need these dogs for a living as they do not see the use of these sports for the every day citizen
Question: Did you even go and look at litters of so-called show breeders? Maybe you could have found a dog that would suite your needs. I went to take a look at two litters not too long ago just because I like puppies and in those 2 litters there was at least 1 puppy which would fit your needs. One of these puppies was even tested by a ring apache and he was thrilled about this puppy, only one problem: the puppy was bred also for conformation and it would have long hair since it was a tervueren pup. Where is the logic in this? If this pup would have been a Mali pup from a working kennel he would have bought the pup immediately but since it was a Terv and breeder also values conformation it is no longer a good puppy. This illustrates to me that you guys are not even willing to try and work with these "show dogs". As long as this predjudice remains, these breeders will never start breeding the dogs you like.
By the way, it was Prof. Ad Reul and the people living back then who were also fixated on appearance even this much that he promotted in breeding to set the type and that dogs which did not have the right coat color were banned or registered under Dutch Shepherd. The Malis back then were only 50 to 55 cm tall and light which is quiet on the contrary to the Malis these days.
Saskia
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He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
I looked at several dozens off litters and adult dogs over a period of 8 months in Belgium and a few in France, this with all kind of breeders including show people. I remember one instance where that struck me particulary. I was with a show breeder in France who bred dogs and we were talking about working with them. he didn't do it anymore because his dog limped after training and it was bad because he had lost a few shows as a result of this???I asked him if he considered using working dogs in his breeding program. The awnser was NO the puppies are to lively and to difficult to handle....
I don't mind where my dog comes from as long as i like him and he's able to do the job.
Your remarque about the size is correct and i prefere the smaller version of the mal. Mine is 64 cm and i think he's to big. Sizes have changed in all livestock in the past century due to better nourishment and medication.
GSD at the top in new sports; have you ever tought about the reason why this is. I think that it might be sheer number. Maybe the GSD wasn't the best excemple here's another one the English bulldog. Can you picture an English buldog of the year 2004 fighting a bull. Apart from the ethic point, they aren't cappable of doing it anymore. This is due to Show breeding.
The list of breeds that have been ruined because their popularity with people who's only concerne is the looks of the dog is long and i'm affraid that this list is getting longer with BS
Like you can tell from some of my other mails I agree with Johan in most parts. I think it is not wise to breed ownly with dogs who are able to get exelent on shows. In my believe you ownly breed with hyper type dogs and the dogs change!. I think the best example is the Bulldog, they cannot even reproduce anymore without help and most of them need surgery to be able to breath. The breed thats close to ours (in lokes) is the Collie, they have changed a lot, if you go from Lassie to the dogs you see now a days you have two different breeds. I personally hated the fact that lots of people asked me if my dogs were mixedbreed collies. I`ve seen Tervs with jaws so small the teeth do not fit anymore, eyes pulled back by there really long nose. Males that are ownly 18 kg. and still 63 cm high, thin bones and without muscles. On the other hand I've seem mals that are allmost 70 cm high and up to 45 kg. they loke like great danes. I think both are extreme. In my experiance hardly any longhaired BSD is capeble of working in Ring, KNPV ore Ipo. They can appear to be really nice as young dogs but they tend to change by experiance. They seem to build fear instead of loosing it through experiance, with most mals this goes the other way arround. For me the best example is sound shyness, I think some of you must recognize this one. A puppie can be a little upset by loud sounds, a malie puppie gets better and better every time he realizes the sound does not hurt him. A longhair can build it from beeing scared of fireworks to beeing scared for the sound of people walking on high heels. I owned 5 show Tervs and 4 dogs from working lines and saw the same thing over and over again. :-/ I think breeding for lokes ownly and breeding for work ownly is making this big differance. Dogs bred for work with sound shyness are not bred anymore while show dogs still are. So breeding for conformation ownly does take a lot of things out of a breed while breeding onwly for work can take away the BSD lokes. I think the answer should be somewere in the middle. Saskia you (like me ) make the same point over and over again, yes the world is changing but this should not automaticly mean we should change every breed into the same homogenious type of dog. One of the things that makes a BSD a BSD and not a Golden retreiver is the different type of work he should be bred for. It is a shame we have so many people running arround this world otherwise we could all buy a flok of sheep to select our dogs unfortunally to many cars are running free arround here. Jeannet
I agree to the things Saskia said in the beginning of the topic. Those are also my reasons for showing my dogs. Besides that I am showing my Laekenois' as well to show the breed to the public. The Laekenois is as everyone here will know the most rare of the 4 varieties, and I think it is a good thing that this variety of the breed also is present at shows. A lot of people who want to buy a dog, go to several shows to see what type of dog they'll like, and what dog will suit them best. I think it is a good thing if people do so, and when there are a lot of breeds to choose from, the people can compare all the dogs to see which one would be best for their situation/demands. For me showing is also about showing the breed to the big public.
When I was referring to the top of the new sports I was referring to BSD and not GSD. Unfortunately the GSD is loosing field in all disciplines, even obedience, but the BSD is at the top because they are able to perform in these new sports. Why do people buy a Mali or Terv or Groenendael for agility, obedience etc.? Because they have seen those dogs perform and some of them even the way they look. So there is a big demand for puppies who are energetic enough to perform in these disciplines but keeping the ability of the new owners to control them in mind since most people are not able to control a dog with a character that is need for Ring. Current show dogs (providing that they are not afraid) possess all of these qualities. So breeders start to breed for these purposes. It is just a matter of offer and demand and unfortunately for you there are more people competing in agility, obedience, fly ball, doggy dance and whatever else people think of than there are people in ring and IPO. But there is a change coming towards more stable dogs but I never believe that they will become the dogs you would like to see but more the dogs Bjorn would like to see in IPO.
Regarding the example of the breeder in France who stopped training his dog, I can understand him. If this dog would be my prize dog and training him in IPO or ring would cause him to limp, I would certainly not train him in the weeks before a show and if this is still not working stop training him in this sport and choose anotherone. Show competition is just too expensive (this is a downfall to showing, this year alone it will have cost me around 2000 euro to show and this is mainly short distance).
Saskia
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He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
I think your argument for showing your dogs are wonderfull. Making other people see a Laekinois is a great dog as wel ! This is something the leakinois needs for sure
I think your argument for showing your dogs are wonderfull. Making other people see a Laekinois is a great dog as wel ! This is something the leakinois needs for sure
Thank you Jeannette! Because the Laekenois is a bit of a black sheep in the family (if you understand what I mean by that) it is also less known with the big public. But when you go to shows there always are people who come to you and ask about the breed, and most of the people are luckily surprised by the breed. A lot of people who have bought a Laekenois pup have seen their first Laekenois in real life at a show.
Regarding the example of the breeder in France who stopped training his dog, I can understand him. If this dog would be my prize dog and training him in IPO or ring would cause him to limp, I would certainly not train him in the weeks before a show and if this is still not working stop training him in this sport and choose anotherone. Show competition is just too expensive (this is a downfall to showing, this year alone it will have cost me around 2000 euro to show and this is mainly short distance).
Saskia
The fact that the dog started to limp in my point of view is this a hidden flaw in the dog but it is still a winner in shows?
It's interesting to see the different views on this. If you look aroud Europe, you'll find almost 2 different types of Belgian Shepherd... the ones that come from pure working homes and that are bred purely for their work drive and temperament, on the other extreme Belgians who look precisely like the breed standard should but don't work or herd..they just show. Those who breed must live on a knife edge..do they breed a dog who is too long in back, no mask etc, but is ace at working or do they breed a real beauty, who drive and work ability are non existant. Depends on what your goal is, I guess
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and it would have long hair since it was a tervueren pup. Where is the logic in this? If this pup would have been a Mali pup from a working kennel he would have bought the pup immediately but since it was a Terv and breeder also values conformation it is no longer a good puppy. This illustrates to me that you guys are not even willing to try and work with these "show dogs". As long as this predjudice remains, these breeders will never start breeding the dogs you like.
) make the same point over and over again, yes the world is changing but this should not automaticly mean we should change every breed into the same homogenious type of dog. One of the things that makes a BSD a BSD and not a Golden retreiver is the different type of work he should be bred for.
