When can I bite the sleeve like the big dogs

[Ian]

Koru has reached, the ripe old age of 5 1/2 months, and has been asking me lots of questions about bite work for Schutzhund. ? I have explained to him even though it seems like Dad knows everything, this is not entirely the truth.?So I told him we are going to have to put these questions to those who have the answers.

His first question which I guess they all ask first. Went can I start biting the sleeve like the big dogs.
Is it best to start off with Dad wherein the sleeve.?

I have lost all my baby teeth now, and my big teeth are not through fully can I damaged them from playing tug to rough.
Everything I do at the moment is in prey when can I start doing some defence work, you should see me when the postman comes round I can get really angry.

At the moment I have just started working with the bite pillow, Dad ties me to a post and I fly at the bite pillow, then we run round in a circle for a few times, and I get to showoff.

The German shepherds still laugh at my floppy ears.

From Ian, written on behalf of Koru, well he is only 5 1/2 months?

[sculpadog]

2 things I like to say first:

*when postman comes and Koru gets crazy you can't name that defence drive right away. Personally I think more special if dogs doesn't react much to a postman. It does pay back better if you are able to teach Koru to accept the postman "to ring twice" (as in the movie).

*there's no need to play rough; not with a young dog, not with an older dog. With more fight and tough grip, play will get rough. But decoy, nor handler does have to play rough at all: dogs give level of acceptance, no handlers does push level of acceptance.

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When to start... actually: keep playing with bite bar -the jute one- and invent more actions compared to that. Someting like bark before bite and play, out on command and get grip again etc ... the more Koru comes to understand the whole game, the more joy will come. With more joy you will see Koru react great to decoy with aggitation.

But ..... in aggitation you make Koru get mad, but no bite .... untill the very moment you feel when he goes he will go for grip and fight. Then training for SchH does start.

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Training for SchH is different than play. You come to teach calm and full mouth grip, to accept stick movements and decoy movements without too much fight. Etc ..

Teus

[Ian]

 Hi Teus,
? ? ? ?The business about the postman, was just me being silly. Koru does not get at all defensive, just very excited about the post coming through the letterbox, he thinks the postman delivers new toys for him to chew up every day.

When we came home in the dark tonight, whilst I was unlocking the front door, some people made noises down the street.? Koru started to bark and go towards them.? This is what I would call the first signs of defence.? Is this the same way you would see it?

Being dog led by how rough the game is makes sense. So with the bite bar you would be teaching the dog to out and re-bite before he even gets to the sleeve, from what I understood I thought this would have created a weaker bite or mouthing?

"But ..... in aggitation you make Koru get mad, but no bite .... untill the very moment you feel when he goes he will go for grip and fight. Then training for SchH does start."


When you talk about the dog getting mad I am assuming you are talking about building his frustration?? ?

At which point and in what way, would you look to bring in defence?

Thanks Teus I appreciate your advice,
Ian

[sculpadog]

Ian,

About prey versus defence. I know what I talk about when using these words. I even understand difference between play drive and hunt drive and many more words like these we people like to use to be more specific. However... it always depends on who (and mostly which country) I talk to and if on same page.
Talking about "Confusion Of Tongues" ....


I don't want to lecture you, but I think you should try to explain what defence drive does mean to you,? what difference it is with fight and flight instinct. What defence is needed for?

I fear you talk about, as German say: "camp trieb" for their SchH dogs.

What I want to say: before asking questions and putting your dog in situations try to figure out what you look to say when using terminology.

Another example of confusion of tongue: what is passive attack for SchH and for Police ??! 

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Make a dog get mad at aggitator is not (!) build frustration --which is negative-- but wake up potential and drives. The foul line is thin here.

TEUS

[Ian]

Teus,
Clarity of communication, essential, I give it a go.

?I don't want to lecture you,? that's a shame it's what I was hoping for.

Defence drive, the drive in which the dog protects itself and pack, from a perceived or actual attack through barking and biting.
Reason for wanting this drive awoken in the dog, is to protect myself from my wife, also my hometown has had the highest crime rate per head of population in UK for a few years now.? You should come and visit, its a nice place.? If shi?? ?hits the fan I want my dog with me.? Personal protection Dog.

SchH training is just for fun and to learn basics and work with my dog, I'm using it as one-off the tools, to bring me closer to the Holy Grail.

I am told by the club trainer that the dog should be very serious when it comes to the hide, in defence not prey.? I do not think the dogs I see are really in defence when they performed the bark and hold.? I think dogs know it is a game which has just got rough through them trying to put the dog into defence.


Passive attack my understanding of this is a dog which will bite a man whilst he is not moving, laying on the floor or in what ever position.? The only reason I see police would need this, is that a person can move very slowly whilst they are pulling weapon out.

How far I will take my dog down this road of real bite work is a big question?? I may get so far with the dog and fill he is strong enough.

Hopefully I have made myself slightly clearer.
Anything which doesn't make sense please pull it apart, my interest is to get it clear.?

Ian

[heldengebroed]

Don't forget that if you train your dog in bitework you change him from a pet into a weapon. (in some countries the jurisprudence places a trained dog at the same level as a gun) Thus training needs to become more committed

Greetings

Johan

[Ian]

Johan,
the training does need to become more committed in the sense being able to train what you want, and? the biggest thing I see is the vigilance which is needed constantly with the dog after the defence has been woken up.

Teus,
you said:
"before asking questions and putting your dog in situations try to figure out what you look to say when using terminology."?
I have explain my understanding of defence and in which way I am looking to use it.  Is this what you would call defence or what word would you use?
My original question was: At which point and in what way, would you look to bring in defence?
Just to get the other point clear I may not necessarily put my dog in any of the situations, the questions are also to gain a clear understanding of the overall picture.
Whenever using terminology in conversation I guess there will have to be a lot of explanation before both parties understand each other's terminology.? I am hoping we are one step closer
Ian

[sculpadog]

I am told by the club trainer that the dog should be very serious when it comes to the hide, in defence not prey.? I do not think the dogs I see are really in defence when they performed the bark and hold.? I think dogs know it is a game which has just got rough through them trying to put the dog into defence.

My original question was: At which point and in what way, would you look to bring in defence?

In this way it looks like prey is equal to play to game : not serious.
Defence is equal to grown up : very serious.

I can tell you if your dog is trained properly in prey he can become very serious and mean just because the dog wants his prey which someone does keep it away from him. Doesn't have to be a sleeve for it can be a ball or even a small tidbit. Thus saying the dog can become mean to some person as long as he does believe you saying so. When you give command for bark and hold and the dog truly does believe your word he will keep person in the hide (even without sleeve) and keep the person there until his prey will be given to him by you. Something to think about for in such situations the dog doesn't have to wake up his fear, his defence yet.

I think this discussion is not about the words defence and prey, nor about real situation vs street-action.?
This discussion is going to correct training and questions you ask has to be seen this way.
Correct training to get your dog working nice on field and give you feeling (!) he might do his job.

Teus

[Ian]

This all makes sense, where you talk about the fact that it could be a ball or some prey item, gets the bark and hold area clear for me.
The German Shepherd I am doing the helper work for at the moment,? Has become more and more competitive about the sleeve his prey item.? He will attempt to drive me off of it, and I'm sure he will bite , just because he? wants his prey so bad.

Thanks Teus
Ian