What do you people think about them (I have shock collars in mind)? Do you use them? I know some people belive they are quick fix (I don?t think they are at least not for average dog owner)and I know that some train with them, especially in schutzhund, ring and so on...
I putted this topic here because I know that people react to topics like this. I did not put topic about electric collars here so people will go crazy and start conviencing eachother who is right or who is wrong just to see your opinions. Although as far as I can see those who talk nice about them are usually selling them.
Best regards, Raven
« Last Edit: October 17, 2004, 04:47:44 AM by Raven »
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Do not condemn the judgment of another because it differs from your own. You may both be wrong. ~Dandemis
In some cases I think a shock collar is needed. If a dog is a danger for himself ore others. I think you really need to know a lot about behaviour and you should be verry good in timing to be able to use it. I've seen terryble things happening by stupid uncontroled use of a shock collar Sometimes if a dog owner can not learn his dog the right behaviour and is correcting a dog in a way he does not understand. A well placed and timed shock can spare a dog dog a lot of pain. So in the hands of the right people it can save a dogs life but in the hands of someone who does not understand behaviour patters it is ill treatment.
My dog is quite sharp when she plays, meaning she will sometimes run after her friends when they're doing the running and chasing game, then she'll nip their shoulder or simply run into them and send them spinning. Therefore I and my trainer tried the electric collar to teach her not to do that, but she completely ignored it even on the strongest setting... she's a bit... dull I guess.
Generally I used to be against it but then I have both seen and heard of occasions where it may be necessary and beneficial, but the approach that seems common in the US where they use the collar for everyday training purposes is terrible.
Electric collars can indeed work but it should not be used during everyday training. The problem with electric collars is the timing since it has to be exactly right.
When Yentos was an adolescent he followed his ears and went in the direction of a meadow with bulls. I tried to call him back because I was afraid of the bulls and the barb wire around the meadow. But he did not come back, at the exact moment I called him very angry he touch the barb wire which, but I did not know that at that time, was under electricity. Let me just say that Yentos always comes back now, no problem. But the next few days he was afraid of me which made me sad so I will never use an electric collar.
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He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
I think that if you are planning to use a electric collor you must be sure the dog understands how he can affoid the shock. In the case of Saskia's dog the shock came in the command so the dog linked it to her. If he had the shock a second later and had he received lots of rewards from his owner he would probably not have been affraid of his owner. Now he linked: angry voice is not nice owner hurts me, in the second case he would have learned angry voice is not to be ignored but coming back is wonderfull, beeing with owner is great. This case proves timing is essential and allso rewarding the behaviour you want to see. Sometimes you need to be drastic especially if a dog brings himself in verry dangerous situations like hunting cars for instance. You need to check if you deeling with a hardheaded dog ore not, you need to make sure the dog does not run away in a pannick ore gets aggresive and you need to make sure the dog knows the behaviour you want to see verry well. If you look into the experiments of Scinner you can learne about the stress reactions you couse if a annymal does not understand how to affoid heavy corrections like this. I really like to read about learning principles and behaviour, lots of nice sites are on the internet and allso more and more books about this topick are available.
You are alright. After the shock Yentos did not come to me but ran through the wires into the meadow. Luckily he still had enough faith i me to come to me when I called him but needless to tell that I did not have the time to reward him with the bulls being in the meadow and no exit at that side of the meadow so I had to push him through the wires once more (bottom wire was not charged).
His insecurity lasted only for a few days and he grew up to be a lovely dog and still cmoes back to me very quickly.
Somehow, using an electric collar would make me feel guilty since I need to use this collar because I have not been a good owner/leader
Saskia
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He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
I have to clear a misunderstanding an E-collar isn't anything like the shock you get when you hit an electrical fence or touch a loose wire. The setting on which my dog reacts gives on drie hands the same sencation as one of those flat batteries on you're tongue. (I have extremely drie hands) The aim of an E-collar isn't to stun or electrecute your dog but to change his mind back to you. And as with all training methodes and aids timing and correct use are essential.
You are refering to modern e-collars with 3 to 7 different levels. I agree you can use those on a low level as a mild correction most of them even have a sound signal for rewarding. The older e- collars have 2 settings and I would not like to touch this one when it goes of. The modern ones on the high level setting are not nice to feel as wel and again if you know exactly how learning principals work you can use an e-collar without scaring a dog of but in the hands of wrong persons it turns into a shocking device that is used to correct training failure ore to speed up things so the dog can be sold on soner. I've seen dogs run from and not trusting there owner anymore. I've seen dogs that were hit by cars becouse of there electric fencing device, they did not understand how to avoid the shock and ran the wrong way. Just look arround and see how many corrections and rewards are given at the wrong moment and you can tell lots of people are not able to use an e-collar, I think it is the other way arround ownly a few are capeble of timing exactly right and no mather wat kind of training method they use they are allways capeble of getting the best out of there dogs. Unfortuonally most people, and I am one off them, know how they should time correction and reward but can not be as consistent as they should be to get the best result I do not think it's a good idee to give them all an e-collar. Saskia I'm glad your dog recoverd this soon and has bounded with you again.
At the club where I trained Belgian Ring we had the rule that only the electric collar that could be used was the collar of the club after having had accidents with people who tampered with their own electric collar so that harder shocks could be administered. Unfortunately this rule was not always applied.
During in-training I have seen a dog go from attack without doubt to not even attacking anymore just by using their own collar at the wrong time. Luckily this dog was a strong dog and the weekend afterwards he was doing just fine during competition.
Saskia
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He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
I don't mind the use off an e-collar. But an e-collar can not give the dog respect too the handler. I allso the wrong use off e-collars what i have seen at clubs in Holland is really bad. Some people are proud that there e-collar goes so hard that the dog pees on it self. And some clubs have there own e-collar set and when a dog is readdy for training the next dog gets it around his nek or he must have it or not. Besides that if i train with an e-collar i push the button not some one that is standing on the field, what i have seen. Or give the a correction before he done something wrong. But what i really hate the most is that when people traine with an e-collar soem dogs act like remote controlled dogs. i puh the button the dog goes left , push again and the dog goes right. I know a man he is standing in the middle off the training field and from there he lets his dog run around the blinds, bark, lets his dog bite and everything goes by the e-collar. That is for me crazzy. The dog acs like a robot. Than for me the dogsport isn't fun anymore. The respect must come from the handler not the e-collar. I use the e-collar sometimes to, when i walk the dogs and they try to run after a rabbit ?than i use it. But in training, no
« Last Edit: January 06, 2005, 05:49:23 PM by Bjorn »
There is no smiley for a deep bow, but you've seen the same I've seen and I think the same you do. I respect you!
The most skillfull and best dog trainer is the one who makes the dog work without ANY collar or leash at all! In all other areas of life we respect the handiworkers, people who are handy and can make things by their own skills and by own hands. In dog sports you have so many gadgets and collars and stuff that it is hard to see the dog underneath them.
I'd rather stay as handiworker, because it is more fun and needs more skills, time and teaches you the most. If I want the dog working with electric, I go to the toyshop, and by it from there. And all I need is some batteries! If you think I am narrowminded, it is just a lousy excuse, because then I suspect that you just breed the dogs for your own ambition, not for the race. At 1891 our race worked just fine without electric collars...
And... do you by your human partners also from shops as electric versions? At least then they'll do excactly how you want... and it is SO MUCH EASIER! Who's now narrowminded...
J
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Coffee and love are something you just can't warm up again.
If I would now have to use an e-collar for some reason, it would make me feel like I have not been a good handler. That is why I refused an e-collar to keep Yentos silent during ring training. I had him under control before I started ring training. In the beginning I was advised by the instructors to let him express his energy by barking and whining but then it became annoying for them and they advised me to use an e-collar but I refused because it would mean that the collar would act as punishment for something he was allowed to do.
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He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
Author
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