Hi! When we teach our puppies for example heal, down, sitz, stand using food as a lure, do most use the command right away or do you wait until, the puppy is doing the obedience exercise lets say sitz before giving the "sitz" command. Do most on the board feel that the puppies understand the command when you're first teaching the excercises? I would like to have someone explain the "triad of learning" as I believe there is also a proofing stage as a part of the triad once an obedience excercise is completed. I once read a formula based on learning from a gentleman from Belgium. Thank you for the assistance. Juan
When I teach a puppy do do lets say sit, I try to show him what to do at the same time I say sit. I give him a reward when he is doing it the same time as I say sit again.
You can also say sit to him when he is sitting by him self and give him a reward.
Anyway, this is a topic for Obedience training, not under malinois. We train obedience with our longhaired varieties too? . So I will move this topic to obedience training.
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The truth is out there, but so are the lies. - Dana Scully
Dogs think with memory pictures - my human comes always through this door, let's be close to it etc. So when I have 7 weeks young pup I take some minced meat and sit on the floor. SIT 1 second and then comes hand that raises above pup's head so that she sits. Good girl, meat, release command. SIT 1-2 seconds and hand goes above pup's head, etc. After few times I don't raise my hand after the command. If the pup looks up I can see she gets the idea already - she rememberes after the command something yummie goes there and she gets it after taking some kind of position. The trick is those seconds between command and hand command to give the dog time to THINK! So you will not get a dog who is waiting treat and hand but who keeps thinking and listening. Plus I kep talking with the dog adding commands. Like the same release moment after meat - she doesn't know the menaing of it but once day she will realise it comes when she may change the position. If she changes before the treat goes away and the command is repeated. Easy! Yeah - try to get the timing right But it works.
The trick is those seconds between command and hand command to give the dog time to THINK! So you will not get a dog who is waiting treat and hand but who keeps thinking and listening.
One thing I like to add onto the style of Ares. Training the sit is not that difficult and Ares explained very well her training. However: most people tend to forget to add concentration and focus into the whole progress. I do see too many people happy and throwing reward when the dog performs what they asked (commanded) but what does your pup learn: sit and then play or food. Sometimes even forced to sit (pain) and reward right away.
As addition I would say: use above tecnique to make your dog sit, then shut your mouth and make sure the pup/dog makes connection between SIT - FOCUS - REWARD. And focus is what you need first. Focus on you as handler, not on food or toy, for you are leader and deserve respect.
In picture you can see the clear focus to me as handler. This dog (in training at Sculpadog NL) doesn't care about the photographer sneaking around to make good pictures. The focus is strong and concentration is there..
Sculpadog
---I know, I know...it's a GSD. It is getting worse: within a few weeks Sculpadog NL will see a new GSD pup in pack. Sorry, business follows it's own rules? ---
I think it is very important to reward the dog at the right time. Command - dog does what asked - reward when it is STILL doing the thing(like sitting). I also use the command word as reward. I give a command "sit" and when my dog sits I reward it with the same word "sit" with the same kind of tone I would use when saying "good girl".
OK you are giving the praise when dog is still performing the sit. What the dog learns is that the task is to perform something. You will get a dog who concentrates on doing but not on result. Soon the dog will be slower and 'forget' to finish - like half standing half sitting position. If the dog understands that result is what brings reward then he has only the result in his head and he takes the position as fast as possible from any poition. I have seen a dog who was tought to sit and rewarded during performing from stand to sit. Now if he was laying down and got sit command, he stood up and started to sit then - the right movement was more important than the result. Of course I don't know what exactly you want your dog to do and maybe that's what you want to achieve.
Sculpa - sorry, forgot contact part. It is too natural part of training and really forgot.
I compete in obedience tirals and my dog needs to know exactly the right way to sit. It is not only that she will sit. One part of the trial is commands from a distance. I have to get her to change the positionsit, lay, stand) and still she has to stay exactly at the same point. She can't move, not at all. So she needs to know how to lay down, how to sit and how to stand up without moving from the spot. ...but still actually that wasn't what I ment earlier. I ment that I reward(give her a treat) the dog while it is sitting not when she get's up. If we still are talking about how we teach PUPPIES. Ofcourse she has to get up to get her gong if I reward her with that, but I personally don't reward puppies with toys when I'm trying to teach them a new thing.
Maybe we misunderstood each other. Of course you praise the puppy if he is still in position. But I think people tend to do it too soon. Timing is important, contact is important, reading your dog is important, your body language is important.... Dog training is sooooooo easy!
Tough I've noticed that some people want too long performances too soon... they make the puppy sit for ages without rewarding it. Same persons totally stop giving any reward when their dog is "fully trained". "It knows what to do. It doesn't need any reward." They basically kill the joy of learning and obeying. That is what I have to deal with everytime I try to guide puppygroupers in training.
I've noticed that some people want too long performances too soon... they make the puppy sit for ages without rewarding it. Same persons totally stop giving any reward when their dog is "fully trained".
I don't think anobody on this forum thinks, talks nor give advice with those force trainers in mind.
I have nothing else to mention for already said well here:
Timing is important, contact is important, reading your dog is important, your body language is important.... Dog training is sooooooo easy!
Except for one thing: contact is something different than concentration and focus is the last item. But yet all these three parts has to be trained seperately that way to make it work together side by side. The holy trinity !
Jnuan: I use the word contact. It is when dog willingly takes eye contact to you, knows that nothing happens without it and wants to take the contact so it can get the training going.
Sculpa: I'm not talking about people who know what they are doing, I'm talking about people who have their first dog and don't know a thing about training it. The most common thing I have to say about is rewarding the dog. Most of them thinks that rewarding ends when the dog figres out what you want from it. Sad but true.
As you all know(?), I'm not a trainer I'm just a dog owner who likes to help fellow dogowners to live with their pets.
It indeed is important. I am now training a group of people who will try to obtain their license for obedience competition on July 21st. We started last Sunday to train on the specificities of this test (telling them what is allowed, what is not allowed). What struck me was that body language of the owners is poor. I wonder what they are going to do when they will train in competition class. I don't feel like re-educating them again (I also teach competition class)
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most people tend to forget to add concentration and focus into the whole progress
I consider focus and concentration to be more important than eye concact. In Belgian obedience eye contact is not always possible. Excersises can be done out of sight.
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Most of them think that rewarding ends when the dog figures out what you want from it. Sad but true.
This is indeed the case and more often than one would think. I still reward Yentos. I now switched from treats to tennisball and it makes a big difference. I once visited (about 3 years ago) a website of an obedience club in Belgium and they stated that they were against rewarding a dog. According to them the biggest and only reward for a dog should be that fact that he did not get punished.
Saskia
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. So I will move this topic to obedience training.
But it works. 
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