This may sound like another "nature-nurture" post but I hope our experts would kindly indulge me in this discussion.
In the Belgian Ring, I find that the one exercise that stands out above the rest is the muzzled object guard. IMO, its the one that gives me a peek at the character of the dog when outside the ring. In the two engagements of this exercise, I marvel when i see a dog quickly respond to "punch" a civilian (decoy wearing scratch-proof jumpers, i suppose) in the midsection when he advances to steal the guarded article.
So in this regard, would it be accurate for me to say that the BR malinois/mechelaar 1. are deliberately bred to have a "civil" rather than "social" character? 2. are trained in civil agitation early in life and this is done concomittant with ringsport training? 3. Both 1 and 2
If the answer is 3, my follow-up question is wouldn't that make the "out" in the other combat exercises harder during training?
In the Philippines, I have personally seen the character and work of a few BR dogs (NVBK-lineage) and I must say that I wouldn't recommend them to newbie handlers or one with a heart condition? Hope to hear from you all.
Hello Norman, I think that civilness and social aggression characteristics are actually "two peas in the same pod" and are found in a lot of the good mechelaar breeds (NBVK). I believe that it is probably bred into them for the purpose of the dogs working in BR. With that said, it is much easier I think to bring out that "fight" (which I like) out of these mechelaars, so perhaps more prey work would be the more prefered way of training them when they're younger to achieve success with these dogs. Although I don't practice BR, I've seen muzzle work done with young police dog candidates at a very young age (10 mos). It can be taught separate from the ring work or also a part of the dogs training in ring. Just depends on your preference. As far as the "out" is concerned, you will probably get a slower out with a dog that has lots of fight but at the same time, if taught early as a young puppy the "out" can be made much clearer and crispier, hence "out" means out. There are many options to correct the sticky outs i.e, pole work, "trapping" in the bite and doing handler corrections without emotions (where the possibilities of getting bit becomes a part of your handling) , and e collar are just some options.
I think that the NVBK dogs offer a lot of nice characteristics and toughness in a mali the way I like them. Are they impressive? Yes, although probably test your abilities as a handler/trainer in more than one way. Juan
Appreciate very much your reply. The ones that i saw here came from the De Trouwe Waakhond Eeklo Club and the last one I saw worked and one with very little black mask came from a maternal Van de Hoevegalm line and a paternal line out of V'Racky. The sire's call name is Benji - dog of NVBK president Germain Pauwels.
What i saw (this last dog) was a very dominant civil dog who thrusted forward on the bite. The information that i had was, during the first few months after arrival, this dog showed very little prey drive and frustration was gripping the handler. One training day, the head trainer decided to tie him out. He was then approached by the decoy in a slow, crouching manner and looking him straight in the eye. What followed was a charge from the dog , snarling and its tail on alpha. From then on he was worked by toning down the "fight" drive a bit and "prey" was reintroduced. He turned into a different dog. From docile to dominant! I think he has a great future whatever discipline the handler should choose to put him in.
Hi There In my opinion a good dog needs to have the ability to get angry (if needed) as well as have a huge amount pf play/prey drive. Training for sports mostly uses prey/playdrive..training for "real" demands a dog that has the ability of getting angry and do something about it:)
In the Swedish program, most of the program is done with a muzzle, and by tradition it has been tought with aggression , which has caused problems with the outs when the sleeve work comes afterwords:) It has always been said that the muzzle work is the work that separates "boys from men"...
The breed mostly used for bitework/Swedish program has been German shepherds Now when Swedes thelat 10-15 years has discovered Malinois, we have also discovered that many of the Malinois have the ability to do Muzzle work using prey/playdrive..so the methods of training is slowly changing..these days we try to use the prey(play(fight drive) to do the muzzle work, if its not enough, we encourage a little bit of aggression in the work...(a few dogs are only using aggression...)
To train a whole program where there is very little biting and much muzzle work, it demands a lot from the dogs:) The Swedish program may not be "flashy" with faboulus attacks and spectacular jumps into the decoy..but the control is outstanding.. I have yet never seen that much control in any ring-program, the closest you get is IPO...To have that mucg control and yet explosivity that means that you have to have dogs with good and steady nerves.. I would say the Swedish program at its highest level is good test of a dogs character:) Of course Every program can be trained if you have time and patience, so naturally there can be lesser good dogs in the program...but those dogs hardly succeed time and time again:) Cheers Marie
a good dog needs to have the ability to get angry (if needed) as well as have a huge amount pf play/prey drive. Training for sports mostly uses prey/playdrive..training for "real" demands a dog that has the ability of getting angry and do something about it:)
I think this statement is exactly right. When a dog is stepped on accidentally, I don't want it to say 'ouch', I want it to say, 'now I mean business, this is personal!'
Is Lei-Anns Ture a Swedish dog? I have tape of this dog competing as well as a very difficult temperament test. I was extremely impressed with him. Especially his ability to fight and then become calm and friendly again. A very happy dog in social situations too. I really liked what I saw of him.
are you from sweden, or how did you get access to a video of lei-anns ture? The temperamenttest you mentioned, is it his temperamenttest done by the police you mean?
Vixax,
Not an expert on protectionsports, but it seems like most of the better mals I?ve seen in swedish defence are using more than just preydrive in the muzzlework, or don?t you agree? And i guess that is the reason with the muzzle, if it can be trained with only prey, then it seems like an unneccessary tool to have in the programm, only increase the risk of injuries I guess.
:)Yes Martin, You are right ...to a certain point...or I could be wrong??, but to me it looks like many malinois work in prey/playdrive but with a kind of seriousness/heavyness in the fight..they are not really "angry" Like you can see some German shepherds (even if they too nowadays seems more like the malinois:
But sure, most dogs doesnt have enough prey/play drive to be able to use the muzzle work without getting them a bit angry...we had one Malinois that did..he was never ever "angry" he just became more decisive in the fight and hit like hell:) Unfortunately he got a kidney illness and was put down:'( Have a nice day
No. Not from Sweden. I'm a Canadian living in the U.S.
The video was sent to me by an acquaintance in Sweden. I think it was the police. They took Lei-Anns Ture into a large, empty building (almost like a barn or storage facility) and really tested his temperament in many ways. Then his handler tied him up to a post and left him alone in the near dark. From there a stranger walked slowly up to the dog and then attacked the dog. The dog fought back intensely. Then the stranger was able to leave the dog and then come back to the dog and the dog allowed the stranger to pat him. Then the dog was taken outside where he walked among many pedestrians and children. That dog really impressed me.
I also saw some of his competition clips where he finished 2nd in defense or something like that.
The best dogs - my personal opinion - have lots of prey drive and they can work very well in that drive, but they also can become angry - and then comes control problems. When they are angry, however,? this is no problem for them psychologically. Once the fight is over they recover quickly and are happy again. I like a dog that when it accidentally gets stepped on it does not say 'ouch'. Instead it gets mad.
I like a dog that when it accidentally gets stepped on it does not say 'ouch'. Instead it gets mad.
dc
You know... when you say this the contrast between what you do like in this dog -recover quickly and are happy again- and dogs who easy gets angry when you step on accidentally is too big and not realistic. It sounds like you applause handler aggression because it shows a dog can get angry ??
It would be different when you talk about dogs who will accept correction if logic and correct but if correction is not needed or handler goes nuts the dog gets angry and fight back.
I'm referring to a training situation where the decoy accidentally steps on the dog. If the dog yelps or is silent, then I would question its will to fight. If the dog verbally threatens the decoy and its biting intensity increases and it is visiably angry - this is what I prefer.
If I accidentally step on my dog I don't want him getting mad at me. I feel bad enough as it is.
If the dog yelps or is silent, then I would question its will to fight. If the dog verbally threatens the decoy and its biting intensity increases and it is visiably angry - this is what I prefer.
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Hope to hear from you all.
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Hi There
