I don't have a belgian yet.? I'm a GSD owner trying to learn as much as possible about working belgian lines for a future pup (not sure how far out :-)
While I do SCH/IPO as a hobby, I intend for my future dog to be a member of the family and live in the house with us.? It is my belief hat one can own a working dog with good drives for the work that can live with the family and be a companion - however - it is hard to do this without a dog with great nerves.
Another reason nerve strength is important to me as I have found that dogs with good nerves tend to be easier to train around distractions.
Being new to belgians I'd appreciate it very much if you could share your experiences with me about which lines? have tended to produce strong nerves and others that have produced weak.
Some dogs that I consistently see in pedigrees are Elgos du Chemin des Plaines, Stoned van de Duvetorre, G'Vitou des Deux Pottois, ROBIN DE LA FONTAINE DU BUIS, Atos? Any thoughts on these studs production record in the nerve department? I'm also particularly interested on which females have produced good nerves when combined with the popular studs above and others that have not.
If you have had experience or know of breeders produce good nerves (particularly in North America) consistently and try hard to do so, please also post or drop me a pm.
Just a comment or thought that crossed my mind as I was reading your post...But first, I wanted to say 'thank you' for doing your research rather than just 'jumping' in and getting a Malinois.
There are many Mals that never worked out as 'house dogs'....not due to 'bad nerves' but due to high drives.? Again, I'm only speaking here from my own experience; but I don't have any issues with extreme drives and 'being able to live' with them....However, that being said; I also am very aware that the type of dogs I prefer, MOST couldn't or wouldn't want to live with lol...and this has nothing to do with nerves.? Most don't know what to do with that kind of drive or how to direct or harness it.? One can have excellent nerve and extreme drives and still not have the expertise to deal with a dog like this.? Many times it's the owner's/handler's 'limitation' and not the dogs....as to why things don't work out.? So just something to ponder!?
Another thought about good nerves and distractions....Good nerves are vital esp. in times of stress...However, good nerves making it easier to train around distractions; I think is a 'weak argument'.? Malinois are reactive and much more on average than your driven GSD.? They don't 'miss a thing'.? Their reactivity can be a 'blessing' and it can be a 'curse' to those who have no experience with this breed.? But this has nothing to do with 'good nerves'.? This IS the Breed.
There are numerous lines which have and do produce solid Malinois and one can find individuals from these same lines which have 'weak nerves'.? There is NO one particular line or kennel that produces 100% 'strong nerves'; just as there isn't one Malinois on this planet that is a 'perfect dog'.
Solid nerves are also about how the pup/dog is brought up and what kind of environment it lives in.? Genetics are only one part of the equation.
Hope this helps a bit.? ? Good Luck!
If one truly understands the BREED; then they'll be able to read and select sound individuals...But if they don't then 99% of Malinois will appear 'nervy'....(just ask any die-hard GSD fan )
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"Desire is the key to motivation, but it's the determination and commitment to an unrelenting pursuit of your goal - a commitment to excellence - that will enable you to attain the success you seek."
Hello I believe Nerve and Character are two elements which must be brought out during Socialization. ?I do not believe it relies totally on genetics, although genetics does aide, in creating a strong dog.
I think most breeders do a good job in introducing young pups to different environments at an early age. ?Especially those of us who concentrate on work, we want to see our dogs get a good start in their careers, and thus we try and introduce young pups to water, slipperly floors, tunnels, as early as we can. ?Not having much experience with those breeders who concentrate strictly on conformation, I will not commment on something I have no knowledge about. ?No matter how much work we do with socialization, drive development, we as breeders can only imprint. ?It is the responsibility of the new owners to take the time to further the dogs education with the world. ?If an owner takes the time to do so you will find dogs with very strong stable nerves that are very social.
Our dogs are our competition dogs, personal protection dogs, family companions, as well as demo dogs for our training programs. ?We try and take our dogs every where we can, and to as many events as possible. ?I believe genetics plays a huge factor in the nerves, stability and temperament of our dogs, but I also believe our ability to socialize them in many environments also plays an equal factor. ?
"Desire is the key to motivation, but it's the determination and commitment to an unrelenting pursuit of your goal - a commitment to excellence - that will enable you to attain the success you seek."
If you think of buying a mal here are some thoughts:
- If my mal reacts like an average GSD i'll be of to the vet with him because he would probably be seriously ill. - For a Mal there is only one possible way between 2 point namely a straight one and this without taking in account what some silly b*stard has put between these 2 points. I vivily remember a particular barbeque where the plates went flying . - A mal knows only one speed: overdrive -It takes milliseconds for a mal to go from fully asleep to overdrive -It takes hours for a mal to go from Overdrive to rest - The only way to keep a mal in check is by training, if you like it or not. - A mal is like a 4X4 ferrari with 2 motors and armoured plating: Super fast,super hard to handle, but great fun
This being said, I don't want any other type of dog
Hey B, Thank you, I also want to comment on your observations as well. I believe you hit the nail right in the head with your observations. It is always nice to see someone with great communications skills, articulate ones thoughts so well.
Many people believe a dog that reacts to distractions is nervy. While I tend to disagree, it is not the reaction that I worry about, it is the recovery or lack there of, that is more important to me.
My definition of a Malinois is a dog that is Wired, on Crack if you will. Its always looking, evaluating, thinking and reacting. Which is why they can be so hard to live with in. Now there are many cases of Mals that will calm right down in the house, but I think for the most part these dogs have been taught to be bored. Our Joker is a house dog, very good in the house. He gets along with our cat, our children but kicks butt in the field. He has been taught to settle down in the house. While I understand the over the top mal, that hasnt been taught to be bored and settle. Many will look at this as a nerve issue and not a drive issue. Which im glad you braught this observation to the fore front for further discussion.
Ah and the distractions, a dog that reacts to distractions must be unstable, or have lack of nerves. I enjoy working with distractions but I am also aware my 1 year old pup is very distracted by them. So for training reasons, I teach him new tasks in a sterile environment and then as he is more proficient I add the distractions as a means to proof him. Im speaking of obedience here and not bite work. As with bitework I teach my dogs to work through obsticles from the get go. I teach them that the distractions, obsticles are just part of the game to get the prize.
I personally feel nerves coincides with recovery. If a dog doesnt recover than it is a nerve issue. If a dog reacts and then recovers and does the desired task, I do not believe it is a nerve issue rather than an exposure issue. Again I go back to socialization and introducing young dogs to every possible environment. The more they are exposed to different environments, the better the dog in my opinion.
I would love to hear your thoughts on other issues such as not enough focus on specific tasks. What about a dog that is fixated on a sleeve, rag, tug or other pieces of equipment that it doesnt want to move forward. What about a dog that is fixated on other dogs, and looses focus on the handler, or obedience, or protection work.
Do you believe in putting a dog away and allowing him to watch other dogs working. What are your thoughts on working pups with older dogs in groups, or do you prefer a dog to be worked alone??
I would love to get your perspective on issues relating to fixation, and lack of focus.
This has turned into a great thread!. Thank you for posting. I completey buy the point about recovery having to do with nerves rather than reactivity to distractions. After all I would not want to take the things out of a Mal that make it a Mal! I just didn't see this as clearly as you and Brigita were able to state.
My current GSD female does not have great nerves. I see this in response to stress and I see this in lack of recovery from distractions - working around other dogs for example - continue to keep her stressed for a long time. I have worked very hard through this - and continue to through socialization.... and having done that I know that there is most definately a genetic component to this as much as a socialization component.
I also think that the point made about the dog being 'taught' to settle was a great one, as will as Brigita's point about not discounting the fact that each pup in a litter is an individual. I imagine that this might be more important than anything in my situation where I would be willing to sacrifice a bit of drive to get a pup that would do better than his/her littermates in a situation where they were living in the house.
As being someone completely new to this breed, I would also appreciate any comments you might have about any general differences between males and females - understanding obviously that individuals are just that - individuals.
And any comments that would help further my knowledge of what all the popular dogs that I see in pedigrees have passed down through the generations - as per your biased opinion :-). Being a newbie, all I see is "look at that pedigree its got Elgos and Stoned and G'Vitou so it must be great". Without any knowledge of what good qualities and what bad qualities are being passed down when combined with what - it is really impossible to tell :-). I realize that I am asking for a lot here - but will appreciate any information you can provide.
Hello, The dogs you mentioned like Elgos, were very good stud dogs, which were capable of reproducing themselves. You will discover several dogs, Like Elgos, Larry De Vulcain, G'Bibber, G'Vitou, Eik Des Deux Pottois, Oscar Von Lowenfels, Oscar Des Deux Pottois, Othar De La Noaillerie. to name a few. Were dogs that were used in many breeding programs, because they have a history of strong dogs behind them, and they were acceptable breeding dogs.
You must remember that not every champion will be a good stud dog. There are characteristics that breeders must consider when selecting a stud dog and a brood bitch. I strongly believe not every dog is a good stud dog candidate. In our own breeding program, we do not introduce a stud dog until over 3 years of age. We want the dog not only to prove himself on the training field, but we want to see his character throughout a longer period of time and make a judgement based on what we see and not his trophies.
That is not to say we do not value titles, or trials. As the training itself can illustrate the dogs true character and how it deals with stress and other factors. So it is just part of an equation.
Elgos, Stoned, and others like them have proven themselves both on the trial field and most importantly off the trial field. These dogs were not perfect, but they are good examples of what the malinois SHOULD Remain to be. Good working dogs, with the capacity to excel in different venues.
So it is not surprising to see many of the dogs that exemply the characteristics that the malinois should be. Which is part of the reason why you do see Elgos, Eik, Othar, Bass, and others like them in so many pedigrees. We want to perserve the working ability, the character, the temperament the Malinois as it was designed to be.
First you should ask yourself what is "nerve strength". "Good nerves" is only a human's way trying to describe something in dog. The "nerves" are not something physical or well measurable. Some dogs are not having thicker nerve threads or lines which would make them stronger and better performer in working situation.
Think about this: if a shepherd dog has a calm, peaceful temperament, is he having a good nerves? We know malinois with lower temperament who nevertheless cannot handle stress from environment or from helper/handler that well. But then there is dogs with high temperament and drives who might show themselves restless before working situation but also handle almost any kind of stress when needed. Which one has the good nerves?
Nerves, temperament, drive are all terms of human which are used in some amount to desribe same, certain kind of behaviour. In my opinion better way to evaluate a dog is trying to know him and his ancestors as well as possible and trying to realise how his experiments and socializing has affected him at young age. And see how he reacts in working/training situation or in selective type of competition (like KNPV, BR, FR) or in other selective test like DMC-k?rung.
Regards,
Timo
Ps.
I would prefer a dog with best possible courage and willingness to bite. Those can also also be measured somehow
Very good points.. there is really no substitute to watching the ancestors of a dog work and live to figure out what you are really looking for.
I think I would stick to Lee's thought that we are referring to the ability to bounce back very quickly from environmental stressors. This allows us to distinguish reactivty with so called 'poor nerves'.
I see courage and willingness to bite as distinct with what I think of as good nerves. True courage in my opinion requries confidence and some level of social aggression. Willingness to bite - if we are talking pure prey drive then a high level of social aggression is not required but if we are talking about working in defence then it is. There certainly is an intersection here.... and you are quite right - a lot of this is trying to describe as a human what these qualities are.
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? Good Luck!
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