No, at 4 months I cannot be sure of how she will handle pressure in training but years of working with Malinois does allow me to make predictions based on observations. ?I do a lot of "training" with my very young puppys and keep notes on early interpretations of behavior. ?Later, I compare this to traits I see in the adult dog. ?
Based on my observations of how she deals with stress and in contrast to other Malinois puppies I have raised ?I would label her "hard" meaning she recovers well from unpleasant experiences with little or no signs of avoidance and no noticable drop in "drive."
A few examples:
We try to hike all the dogs in the hills behind our house daily. ? On one of Atta's first walks she crashed into my boy Feist who promptly grabbed her by the head and shook her. ?The same thing was repeated just a few minutes later. ?Although she has not crashed into him again she shows not negative effects. ?Other puppies have shown avoidance (not willing to pass him on the trail, etc..)
From the beginning I teach my puppies to move with the leash (I use a harness for agitation and a collar otherwise). ?Most of my puppies are very easy to teach as they are sensitive to physical pressure, however they occasionally will stop eating (treats offered as reward) after a stronger correction on leash. ?Atta has taken quite a bit of pressure to inhibit the pulling but has never shown any change in her motivation for food/toys offered as reward for good behavior.
Basically, she is not emotionally sensitve, physically/pain sensitive and remains motivated for food and play even in situations with higher than average stress...for a Malinois puppy...hard. ?
The terms we use and the definitions may be different and certainly things may change as she gets older but I am very pleased with her at this point.
As far as Stan, my friend did not say he was handler aggressive (or aggressive period) he just required a lot of pressure to remain under control. ?Philippe said he was very good with the handler but required and seemed to take in stride much pressure from the handler and the decoy.
As far jumping, she is big and heavy boned but very fast. ?I too was (and am) concerned with the jumping. ?So far I have been pleasantly surprised (she can jump over my 12 inch Border Terrier at a dead run without losing stride and can easily jump on top of a 24 inch crate). ?But max jumps in French Ring are high so only time will tell.
Control often was an issue because you couldn't be too hard on them.? That's why some did very good in Cat3 but got control problems afterwards.
I don't understand this statement. When I've worked with a sensitive dog, control wasn't an issue because they were sensitive. Are you saying the dogs were sensitive (couldn't be to hard on them) but at the same time couldn't be controlled in the bitework? Or am I mis-understanding?
On an unrelated subject, what sort of size have you seen in inbred/linebred A'Tim pups? The ones I've seen, from parents were who were medium to large in size, are all small. Females that might be 45 lbs as adults, and males under 60 lbs. Are you seeing the same thing in Belgium (I'm sure you've seen a LOT more inbred A'Tim pups than I have) or is it just the few I happen to have seen?
What I meant is that a dog must be able to take stress and punishment if you want to compete top level. They have to be fast, driven, powerful impact, powerful deep grip BUT they have to out immediately when they are told. Also for object guard and defense, we have to go very deep in the control. When a dog doesn't get over it immediately when he gets a (sometimes hard) punishment, going on training him is useless in my opinion.
If you take him hard on the out or to teach the stopped attack and afterwards he hesitates to go for the attack or loses his happy attitude, then he just is too soft. If you go on training such a dog, then you have to be careful with punishment, which means the results won't be so effective anymore. Weak dogs take advantage of it when they feel they don't get punished just as much as strong dogs, BUT you can't be too hard on them. Result: control problems because they realize they get away with it.
About the close line breeding (f.i. half brother with half sister). I don't see any difference over here with other offspring. Most offspring are strong dogs and normal to pretty big size. I haven't seen any real small dogs from him over here. Dogs like my boy Fils are no exception (69cm at the shoulder and 38 kg). The smallest males I've seen from him were about 62cm and 28 kg).
Two of the fastest flyball dogs I know are A'Tim grandaughters...neither weighs over 45lbs.? Both are pretty bitches, bright red and put together well.? The two males from that litter are average size (maybe 60lbs).?
Two of the fastest flyball dogs I know are A'Tim grandaughters...neither weighs over 45lbs. Both are pretty bitches, bright red and put together well. The two males from that litter are average size (maybe 60lbs).
Who are father and mother? I don't know the dogs on the pictures. They seem like beautiful dogs but indeed smaller then the ones we see over here (but still in the standard as far as I can see).
Just checked a converter because I had no idea of their US measurements:
A'Tim 75 lbs (34 kg) and 25.2 inch (64 cm): nice average size
Gast 73 lbs (32 kg) and 25.6 inch (65 cm): nice average size
Fils 86 lbs (39 kg) and 27.2 inch (69 cm): big size
"nice average" is what I'd call most of the offspring. Quite a few "big ones" too.
IPO females sometimes are a lot less in height and weight then the NVBK females, so these combos might give smaller dogs (can't think of any examples however).
Martine, I've worked a couple of dogs that were almost impossible to train the stopped attack. What do you guys do with very strong dogs for this excercise?
Before we start training the stopped attack, control must be 200% perfect This is VERY important. No use to start sooner.
I teach it off the field, when I take the dog for a walk. I take him somewhere where I know there is something he'd like to chase (dogs, rabbits, cattle,...). There I let him run free and don't correct him too much so he feels very free. Then I wait for the right moment (can take days sometimes) for him to go for the prey. I let him run a few seconds until he is full speed and then I whistle and correct.
Sometimes I repeat it a few days later (not at the same spot).
Then we start on the field. First a few times at half the distance of the attack and then closer.
They told me they were fast agile and not verry big. Good characters.
I just purchased a dog imported from this kennel, who has multiple dogs in the pedigree also from the kennel.? This is a photo of him standing next to my female Cali (she's on the left, he's on the right).? I don't have a height/weight for him yet, but Cali is 25 inches (63.5 cm) and 70 lbs (31.8 kg).? So she's not exactly small either? .? And he's still young (about 1.5 years), hasn't really filled out yet.
Hey Martine, I just wanted to tell you that i think your right about my web with Steph, and the pic. I thought it was Fat Louie Now that i look at it i think it is Byraks. When I talk to Steph. I`ll ask her .I also want to say that i think your website and dogs look GREAT! I really like Fils! he looks like a lot of fun! Thanks again for the info.
Well, I will politely have to disagree with the idea that Patrick Dubois produces small, agile, handler sensitive dogs.? I currently have three dogs from Contes D'Hoffman kennels at my place.? One is a ten month old male who has not been worked (came from a "pet" home).? This boy is about 26 inches and just shy of 75 lbs with bone like a Malamute (and a beautiful plush coat as well).? He is a deep red with a big strong head and tiny ears.? The second is a blue male who is just over three months with incredible bone.? I would guess he weighs close to forty pounds.? I will try to get some pictures of the two boys tomorrow.? The third is my girl Atta who is about 60lbs at 7 months (but sadly did not get the cute small ears).? All three are knuckle-heads but love to retreive and tug.
Oh Lisa, I bet you are having "fun" with those 3 Philippe said you were taking the boys, so I wouldn't have to deal with them, and I simply said "thank you"
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because I had no idea of their US measurements:
Philippe said you were taking the boys, so I wouldn't have to deal with them, and I simply said "thank you" 
