I am aware of the problem I have myself bought dogs from Belgium that originally wasnt recognized by FCI, so called KNPV dogs...after 2 dogshows in Belgium they got FCI pedigree... The Pedigree is "empty" since FCI wont recognize the parents(even if I know the parents) But I can look for the parents in www.bloedlijnen.nl
Its a pity they wont recognize eachother...the same in Netherlands with the KNPV-dogs, the good workinglines are all without pedigree..so when it comes to my Dutchies I have a terrible problem finding breeding dogs i can use..thats why I know so many that cheats..its esier to cheat than to actually find a good dog with a pedigree(I talk about dutchies) When it comes to malis there is plenty of good dogs with an FCI pedigree...(in sweden you need a FCI pedigree to compete) Without FCI pedigree the dog is considered a mixbreed...
I assume, there must be a lot of money going around in the Mals! I agree, a good dog is not only a good dog if he/she has an official pedigree. The thing is of course how to breed proparly with a good dog. not every good dog will have good offspring. Has 2 balls, is fertile etc. etc.
Cheating is only succesfull if you earn (black) money or if you have some kind of goal to go to (your name as breeder of good working dogs for instance). I also understand that people that work with dogs are very selective, and can rather easily let a dog down that doesn't succeed.
petra But honesty is the thing that wins in the end.
I assume, there must be a lot of money going around in the Mals!
You would be surprised how low the price of working mals are 250 or 300 ? for a puppy!!! IPO (eg SH) 500? for an adult trained dog things are different but if you consider the time you put in it it isn't worth it
Where did you find working mal puppy for 250euro. Show me that. I been looking for working malinois with FCI pedigree and the price is 650- 800 euro. The lowest was 500 euro. Maybe this price is for puppy without pedigree.
If you go NVBK it is 250-300 If you go Sh it is more expencive i bought mine and paied 550 with van het dreiland( has some females left if i'm notmistaken from the mother of my dog
If you don't know who Bart is and who his dogs (FLUP & ZODT) are, then you shouldn't be involved with Malinois/Working Dogs:
Interview with Bart Bellon By Michael Ellis
This is a portion of an article that appeared in the first issue of PCM.
Q: Are there any bloodlines you prefer for the work you do? Any breeders that you think produce this kind of dog?
A: No, I look at individual dogs. All breeders sometimes have a good litter, next time not so good. I look for a very strong dog and the breeding is not so important.
Q: Are your dogs registered?
A: No. The Belgians have for a long time mixed many breeds together in the Malinois. To me the Malinois is the working shepherd of Belgium. The dog I won the championships with in 1992, Flup, was a Malinois and German shepherd mix. He was a very good dog. I think this is the best system for making really good working dogs.
Q: Do you work bitches? Do any of the good breeders work their bitches?
A: No. Only males are really worked. It is like American football, a sport for the males. Some people used to work females occasionally, but if they worked well they were aberrations and did not produce themselves. The bitches for breeding are selected for their background.
Q: Do they test the bitches?
A: No. We just like a nice, friendly bitch from good parents for breeding.
Q: ?If you were choosing a stud dog what would you look for? ?
A: How do I say this... I want a dog that has too much of everything. If this dog gives 30% to his offspring it is good for most people. The training is getting better and better, and people are breeding to the dogs that get very good points, but this is not always the good dog for breeding. There are many mediocre dogs winning competitions through good training. The dog for breeding should be one with much too much.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2004, 02:42:57 AM by strombouts »
It depends what you mean by "MALINOIS" and "good stud dogs"...
Here are extracts from an interview with BART BELLON.
I hope you have been alowed to put this here since you know how it is with copyright material.
Quote
Q: Are your dogs registered?
AL: No. The Belgians have for a long time mixed many breeds together in the Malinois. To me the Malinois is the working shepherd of Belgium. The dog I won the championships with in 1992, Flup, was a Malinois and German shepherd mix. He was a very good dog. I think this is the best system for making really good working dogs.
SO if I understand this corectly malinois is working shepherd of belgium and he won championship 1992 with malinois and german shepherd mix. He states it?s a mix and that is malinois for him. Ok, his opinion not mine. Why call it malinois if it is xmal or to be more exact germali.
Malinois is malinois not a mix of 2 breeds. My opinion is if you want a super and great and dont know what dog make a new breed since this is destroying of one breed to evolve it into something else.
This is like show lines going into one extreme and forgeting everything else just look is importaint. The same is done with working dogs where only work is importaint.
I even saw mal looking like a pitbull with head of malinois. Great evolvment.
This is all just my opinion, I know you have yours and I will not try to convience you other way.
Best regards, Raven
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Do not condemn the judgment of another because it differs from your own. You may both be wrong. ~Dandemis
thanks bjorn, learned something new from the intervieuw with bellon. Let the dog walk around with the sleeve, not only for his prey-drive (that was mine motivation), but to learn him the breath trough his nose with his mouth full.
It wasn't BJORN who posted this -- it was ST ROMBOUTS!!!
BJORN wouldn't have been able to find this, much less would he have wanted people to know what BART BELLON thinks about how to go about selecting a STUD DOG.
I'm glad that you, at least, have the intelligence to have learned something from it.
Keep away from dimwits like BJORN and rather attend a BART BELLON seminar....
I wouldn't be so snotty about MALINOIS if I were you.
There isn't a purebred Groenendael or Tervueren around anymore. The closest you could get to a ?pure? Tervueren would be the recessives born in Malinois litters.
So, your Groenendael or Tervueren isn't as "purebred" as you would like to believe -- it is a BSD X Collie (and GOD knows what else) mix!!! And ST HUBERTUS/FCI et al should pull all their papers before they start with Malinois!!!
Don?t you know that the Groenendal and Tervueren breeders before WWI and between WWI & WWII crossed their dogs with Collies in order to ?improve? the coat and make them prettier!?
Well, they most certainly succeeded!!! That?s why so many Groenendaels and Tervuerens today have such ugly narrow hatched heads with the eyes so close together?never mind their feeble characters and temperaments, not to mention their lack of working ability. They are Collies hiding in BSD clothing!!!
You really need to do some more research on the history and genetics of our breed before you rush to make the kind of supercilious statements you are making.
Christian
« Last Edit: December 30, 2004, 03:36:57 AM by strombouts »
I know about groenedaels and tervuerens.. and i did not find out that from you.
Since you are expert on the field tell me what malinois is for you. If malinois is a dog to which father is german shepherd and mother is malinois i really dont know what to comment.
It seems you are the only one soo angry here and only you are right.
And excuse me for having my opinion which is different from yours! Thank God my opinion is not only mine but shared with lot of other people just like yours probably.
Raven
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Do not condemn the judgment of another because it differs from your own. You may both be wrong. ~Dandemis
Im sorry, but you are not telling anything new, because they did mix in Collies a really long time ago and almoust everyone knew that before you came here and told us. And remeber it was a looong time ago. Anyway..you use that for an excuse to make new mixes, and you only like "working dogs", not real Belgian mals! Anyhow..many people loves our Belgian Shepherds and lives for making it a better breed and Im talking about all varieties, not only mals. I personly love the beutiful long head, highset ears and much coat.
Im only sorry that people dont know how to make a perfect working dog, without mixing and destroying a allready good breed
Anyway..I know I have a purebreed dog, Im just sorry for your sake, that you live in your own world.
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The truth is out there, but so are the lies. - Dana Scully
Author
I have myself bought dogs from Belgium that originally wasnt recognized by FCI, so called KNPV dogs...after 2 dogshows in Belgium they got FCI pedigree... The Pedigree is "empty" since FCI wont recognize the parents(even if I know the parents)
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