First of all: the actual topic is not A?Tim. Topic is "Good malinois studdogs".
Heldengebroed:
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Most dogs start competition at the age of 3 so a dog is 6 or older before the first siblings arrive in competition.
Siblings=brothers and sisters. Didn?t mean offspring. If the dog is three yo, siblings are, too. They should appear SOMEWHERE but they do not. Not any of metasearch engines find?m, not any breeder knows?m.. Freezer?
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Question health. A dog in competion with a health problem leaves the scene very fast. HD or elbow problems mean that the dog loses points, points necesary to win.
Ouuu jess. Siblings have left the scene??
Because there ain?t more than one or two dogs from every litter who compete:
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May i remind you that only a very low percentige of the dogs that start training in Ring finish in competition ( i estimate it at 5 or 10 %)
Let?s play we have 100 puppies out of..let?s say A`Tim while he is the "topic". Please, do understand this is just a play and an example.
Take 10% out and make?m compete- that leaves 90 pups. Take 20 female pups (20%) for breeding after they?ve shown their teeth- that leaves 70 which is quite same than 70%. These 70 puppies weren?t good enough for competing- why? Character? Left the scene because of bad health? What happens to these puppies I, somehow, cannot imagine them as a familypets or companions for grandma Mathilda..
Just how good studdogs these "stars" are, if estimately 70% of their offspring is lost?
- Birdie -
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Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed devotees can change the world. Do you know why? Because it's the only thing that ever has.
Most dogs are sold as pets to people who do not compete in any discipline and who remain unknown (only 2 out of the 6 of my dog's litter can be found on the internet and compete in a discipline). So I do not have a problem that none of A'Tim's brother/sisters can be tracked.
My biggest problem is that topics like A'Tim/Vasco and the website of the KNPV member give the breed a bad name. Why is it that some dogs look more like a GSD than a BSD. It is publically known that BSD and GSD are mixed and that their pups have a pedigree. Any breed that is good at something falls in the hands of people who want to make money out of this.
Heldengebroed:
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Question workingdogs ugly. Yes there are workingdogs that look like... but the majority can compete in a show and won't make a fool of themeselves.
I have been to the local championships obedience and I have seen about 25 Malinois there and I think I would consider presenting in a showring maybe 3-5 dogs (meaning they need to have at least a VG for sure). It all depends on what you consider "make a fool of".
Saskia
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He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
Some of these dogs were from typical working lines. workinglines that also compete in ring, so let's not make the difference.
Saskia
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He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
Siblings=brothers and sisters. Didn?t mean offspring. If the dog is three yo, siblings are, too. They should appear SOMEWHERE but they do not. Not any of metasearch engines find?m, not any breeder knows?m.. Freezer?
Ouuu jess. Siblings have left the scene??
Because there ain?t more than one or two dogs from every litter who compete:
Let?s play we have 100 puppies out of..let?s say A`Tim while he is the "topic". Please, do understand this is just a play and an example.
Take 10% out and make?m compete- that leaves 90 pups. Take 20 female pups (20%) for breeding after they?ve shown their teeth- that leaves 70 which is quite same than 70%. These 70 puppies weren?t good enough for competing- why? Character? Left the scene because of bad health? What happens to these puppies I, somehow, cannot imagine them as a familypets or companions for grandma Mathilda..
Just how good studdogs these "stars" are, if estimately 70% of their offspring is lost?
- Birdie -
You're right it's offspring not siblings (sorry Inglish is only my fifth language) and about the percentage Lets say you have 100 puppies out off a given studdog (this means 10 or more breedings the first year he competes) 50% females this leaves you with 50 potential ringdogs (Ring is mainly played with mael dogs) Of those 50 a number aren't suitable for ring (eg the provincial shampion NVBK ring has given at least one puppie that wasn't interested at all in bitework) After 3 years of training you get 2 to 5 dogs that are ready to compete the rest well they are sold to police/army etc Why the others don't get there; any reason counts: wrong handler, one thing he doesn't want to learn correctly etc
So of a dog of 8 you might see some dogs competing. I've seen, last year, some offspring in training and it looked rather positive, are they going to make it? who knows...
Yes. Now we are getting there.. And here, up North, only 20% of all dogs together from the one-year-registrations is x-rayed, competed- or whatsoever. Rest 80% are maybe seizuring, suffering from hip dysplasia...Hard to say while these dogs are just lost into the countryside. If this sort of thing happens here- how about continental Europe?
Small country- everybody knows something and there hardly can happen any "freezing" but what about offspring analysis? How can some dogs be called "good studdogs" while 1) pedigree is unclear so no predictability for offspring 2) a lot of it?s offspring are living in countryside with no prove of their character, outlook or working abilities.
Breeding is partly about predictability. You never can be sure- even you have bred last three generations by yourself- what genes nature gives to your next puppies. But. When you have right knowledge about those three generations, you can make a better forecast and maybe all pups can start to compete.
For example, at cow breeding, a bull will only be approved for long-term breeding if every of it?s calves is healthy and producing better meat (or milk) than the last generation. To get this information, bulls offspring is tested. Every single of them. If maybe 2 out of 20 calves is suffering some sort of malformation- this bull is no longer used for breeding.
At dogs we let "superman" have 10 bitches and.. gama houlama go!
- Birdie -
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Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed devotees can change the world. Do you know why? Because it's the only thing that ever has.
But isn't this the case everywhere. Most dogs will never compete because they are fast enough, beautiful enough, have enough bite. Whether or not a breeder can keep track of the offspring, is also a matter of the new owners giving info to the breeder.
Saskia
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He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
Birdie, I think you have something against working malinois, but can't express it clearly, or you have some different breeding vision of your very very malinois.
Saskia; you?re right about same situation everywhere but what I?m still after is "Good studdog". I try to wake up thoughts for thinking, what are the attributes that make good studdog If this conversation only goes to throwing names like Jorkan, which I personally like very much and can recommend for breeding; these are only personal opinions and based only to someones personal feelings, not necessary into any facts.
It?s a whole new matter about breeders morality- we can get into that later, tho there won?t maybe be lots of subjects to discuss
And Marius; I don?t have anything else against working-lined malinois than any one else in this forum: you can read their opinions about false papers from this very thread. My breeding vision is quite "normal"- it bases into Mendel and aim?s to the breed standard. On the middle is my breeding material, which includes both working- and showlined mals. As the end result I hope to get healthy dogs. After too many epileptics (recessively inherited disease) on our population, that is my main target.
So please, forgive me, that I want to know what really is in my dogs pedigree and where are those siblings. If that is what you call "different breeding vision", then yes, suppose I have one
- Birdie -
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Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed devotees can change the world. Do you know why? Because it's the only thing that ever has.
About correct pedigrees of malinois. There is not any 100% correct pedigree ! That means that malinois wouldn't be what they are if pedigrees would be 100% correct. In my opin?on working malinois wouldnt be even competetive with other races if it would be so. Well known fact is that many of great historical stud dogs dont have real fci pedigree or have a wrong father or so on in pedigree, some examples are G'Vitou 2P, Atos, Elgos, Eik 2P, Haddock 2P, Xjelaba. How many present stud dogs and breeding bitches are based on those dogs ? I answer you MOST are.
Show dog folks dont jump for joy now, your lines are also mixed. To long haired variations has been mixed long haired collie and that we can really see from several show line dogs nowadays, super narrow heads and big coats and character is like collies. After wars, tervuerens has been mixed with malis, so show-malis have got their share too, so your dogs are X-show belgians Which is worse to have in working dogs bloodlines, collie or gsd ?
When talking about character with show dog people, I dont have any base to start from, visions are so different.
In Sweden ALL workingdogs needs to do a "mental description" th results are kept on the internet open to all people...
Background
The swedish Workingdog association, is overall responsible for the breeding of our "working dogs" ie German shepherds, Giant Schnauzers, Rotts, Malis, Dutch shepherds etc. The SBK (workingdog assosiation) arrange all competitions, all mental tests and descriptions...the results are kept in a huge database... (open to everyone)
In order to register puppies the parents need to be x-rayed and also have the "mental description" done. Its not a "test" because you cant really "fail" You just decribe what you see in the dog..and every "breedingclub" has a "profile" that is set to be the "ideal" of that breed, so the goal is to breed towards this "profile" and in the database you can see charts of all the dogs "tested"... you can actually see that a breed has tendensees to have more fear, or more aggression..
The SBK has educated judges that are doing this descripton all over the country, the description is performed exactly the same all over the country, there are predefined exersises that the dog is supposed to do..(no obedience or bitework) You put the dog in situations that he has to solve by himself. You look at Fear, playdrive, aggression, defensedrive, and ability to cooperate with a person
The results are put in the database, and normally you do this description on a whole litter at the time so its actually the PARENTS that are tested..if the whole litter is doing well, you might say this combination was good, if just one of the puppies (young dogs 12 months) is doing well...you might say that this combination was not that good... You can search the database for offsprings of a single male or female and compare the results...
This database is uniqe and HUGE I think we tested more than 25 000 dogs during the years(I might be wrong with the numbers) I do have a PDF file in English I can send to anyone interested.
Anyway, with this huge database in Sweden finding a goos PROVEN stud dog isnt that hard:)
Of course things like Upbringing, handler etc makes it "not foolproof" but its the best we have right now..SBK is constantly doing research to improve the tests to make the more to see whats RELLY In the dog genetically and not "trained or detrained"
I find this ttol very helpful, and I agree with Birdie.. I would NEVER use a stud dog if I didnt know that the sibblings are also "good" dogs...o9ne "fluke" dog in the litter is nothing for me.. I?d rather use the "worst" dog if he has an average of rally good littermates...
The problem in Belgium is that we have 2 organizations, SH and NVBK. Only SH is recognized by FCI. NVBK has their own pedigrees which are not recognized by SH. The other way around, if a dog with a SH pedigree is registered with NVBK, then this dog receives an NVBK pedigree. If they don't get along on the level of pedigrees (recognizing each others pedigrees) they will certainly not build a database together although it is a good idea.
Saskia
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He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
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I would probably sooner fly a plane than get a dog to IPO 3.
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