As a result of this discussion about A'Tim, I went to look for his pedigree on the internet (if it is such a great dog one would expect to find his pedigree on the internet). I have not been able to find it neither under the name Dovre Fjeld Vasco nor under the name A'Tim.
Although we do not see the real pedigree as pdf document, I trust that somebody will not deliberately put the wrong pedigree on his site. But still this proves nothing as explained in one of the other topics on X-malinois and KNPV.
If they want to clear A'Tim from all accusations, a DNA test of him, his parents and grandparents (if this is still possible) is the only way to go. This will either confirm that there is a problem with this dog or that there is none. In my opinion SH should demand this and base their decision on these tests.
And Bjorn, please provide us with this paper.
As far as his performances, A'Tim is nearly 8 years old. If I compare this to the dogs I saw at our club they were not even active anymore at this age.
Saskia
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He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
And i would also like an awnser to the questions i asked on november the 5th namely:
You say that:"Plus the Dovre Fjeld Vasco Pedigree is made up. Infact this dog doesn?t excist"Posted on 04/11/2004
If this is true how do you rhime this with another of your messages posted 16/10/2004 about A'tim namely:"I have a paper that said that all people that have a Dovrefjeld Vasco on the pedigree as the father they must send it back to Sint Hubert but know he has got a FCI pedigree it is sick"
If the dog doesn't excist according SH how can he figure on the pedigree as the father of his sons?
:)Cheeting with Pedigrees is quite common as I understand.. We also have Dutch Shepherds and I have both seen and heard about many fake pedigrees....its sad.... It makes it so hard to breed...when it comes to DS we have a extremly small gene pool of pedigreed DS who can work...
BTW we will Use Kukays Xjules for mating this year/early 2005, there are two litters born ealier in Sweden , I have seen offsprings from Xjules from 4 different females, he really is a stron Std dog, all the puppies I have seen have been good. We have a Xjules Daughter as well, she is stronghedaed, with a good portion of drive:) Cheers
I cannot believe that this discussion is taking place here in this form. I think most of comments come out of jealousness, somebody has a f**king good dog and that's all.
Folks you need to remember that because the history of working malinois breeding (NVBK vs. SH) many good NVBK-dogs have been used for breeding with FCI-papers during the years. During 70's there was only two SH-breeders breeding working malinois: des deux Pottois and Boscaille. If you think that present FCI-malinois is based only in these two breeders, you are quite stupid.
The point for using non-papered malinois is to have bigger genetic pool - the papers are not making the dog but of course the breeder needs to have enough knowledge about real parents. For example all the good KNPV-mechelaars go to same ancestors: wellknown old SH-dogs like Sirol, Cabil etc. It?s just another system (a good one) and another way of testing and registering dogs.
On the other hand, blaming one dog anonymously and giving some other names afterwards as a suggestion for breeding dos (may be perfect dogs then) make s a bad impression on me. But this hobby is full of envious people.
Guido
ps. Saskia, in NVBK many dogs have won championship at the age of 11 or 12 years and they can still be used for breeding
I was just refering to his age because Bjorn once mentioned that he had seen the dog in action at competition and he was not impressed. If Vasco is still active at the highest level at the age of 8, it is meant as a compliment. Many dogs would not last at the top when he reaches this age.
For SH a male can only breed until the age of 10 unless you request an extention.
Saskia
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He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
Think Bjorn was doing right thing when bringing this subject in daylight- happy that someone had the balls to do it.
I did not quite understand, exactly where is that increased gene pool what Flyingmechelaar was supporting as the result of using KNPV- dogs to breeding, while to the same breath he (or she) says "they all go to same anchestors"?
I also missed the point here: even there are more than two breeders where breeding is based- they say, there are only two breeders in Europe, who REALLY know, what are the real parents or anchestors of those good stud dogs that has been used for decades. Another of these 2 breeders is Mr. 2P. Exactly how does this help me on my breedingwork?
If I use, for example, one KNPV-dog for breeding- how can I know, what comes from their lines? And this includes working ablities as well the health.
While those big working-line breeders have tens of dogs on their kennels, I dont believe not one pedigree that?s printed on paper (or stone or wall or..). There are some SO ugly working-lined dogs who look more like there has been done some donkey-business on some holes. Tho it?s good, that natural selection is given even a chance..
Another thing is, that all those great stud dogs (or champions in ring); where are their siblings? What is their status of health? Or working abilities? How many good KNPV- dogs you can find, where you are fully aware about their siblings?
Here is an possible answer: they only take the most promising pup from all litters and put rest to the freezer. Out of sight, out of publicity- with all their faulties. If this one "star" really becomes a star- the hophop! Everybody uses it for breeding. After few generations we all wonder with blue eyes, what went wrong..
The papers may not do the dog, but give us even small clue and legal backup for the future. I, personally, have very strong need to produce puppies, which I can give buyers some sort of warranty of their health. But maybe these KNPV-dogs are all so healthy that this is not even a matter, which needs to be considered?
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Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed devotees can change the world. Do you know why? Because it's the only thing that ever has.
Think Bjorn was doing right thing when bringing this subject in daylight- happy that someone had the balls to do it.
Where are the awnsers to the questions asked at bjorn? I can't see them It is very easy to start rumors about something but you have to back them up if asked!!!!!
On you're question about the siblings of those studdogs. May i remind you that only a very low percentige of the dogs that start training in Ring finish in competition ( i estimate it at 5 or 10 %) further more a ringdog starts breeding when he has shown something in competition. Most dogs start competition at the age of 3 so a dog is 6 or older before the first siblings arrive in competition.
Question health. A dog in competion with a health problem leaves the scene very fast. HD or elbow problems mean that the dog loses points, points necesary to win.
Question workingdogs ugly. Yes there are workingdogs that look like... but the majority can compete in a show and won't make a fool of themeselves.
As always ( always ultra always dry ) A-tim is the main point of this topic.
Heldengebroed:
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Where are the awnsers to the questions asked at bjorn? I can't see them It is very easy to start rumors about something but you have to back them up if asked!!!!!
Maybe Bjorn did start a rumor maybe he didn?t but the topic is here so we can at least discuss it. About backing up I don?t know let?s not judge Bjorn too fast, god knows where he might be and maybe he will give us that paper he has (maybe he won?t, god knows how he got it and if he should have it in the first place).
Birdie:
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Another thing is, that all those great stud dogs (or champions in ring); where are their siblings? What is their status of health? Or working abilities? How many good KNPV- dogs you can find, where you are fully aware about their siblings?
Good question. I understand that all siblings can?t be great in RING but maybe they would be in something else (IPO and so on, we always hear that it is possible to teach any dog to make at least IPO 1) and I guess at least one person would be proud to have brother or sister of such a great dog (one in a million).
flyingmechelaar:
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I cannot believe that this discussion is taking place here in this form. I think most of comments come out of jealousness, somebody has a f**king good dog and that's all.
Belive it! Wouldn?t you like to know if there is something wrong with let?s say your dogs father? If the pedigree is made up and so on. What if this is all truth and they let?s say take away pedigree of Atim? Than your dog would have no pedigree, how would you feel than? The thing is that A-tim discussion is not only on this forum, there is a lot of talking about A-tim across whole Europe and it can?t be jelousy.
Ok guys I am not an expert but I would really like to know what?s the truth behind A-tim. I still say it?s great dog, it works great (at least from videos I?ve seen) but if it is really one in a million malinois that is still to be proven. It seems that his pedigree cannot prove it!
It is easy to say: Prove me that A-tim is not malinois! But can you prove that he is?
And guys don?t be soo pationate about this topic, this is discussion, everyone has his/her own opinion. All those who know nothing about this subject can ask questions and those who know what they are writing about should answer and enlighten those who ask.
Best regards, Raven
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Do not condemn the judgment of another because it differs from your own. You may both be wrong. ~Dandemis
This discussion keeps turning into some sort of fight. Cheeting will take place allways and ever. Not only in breeding mallinois but also in the other variety's. He wake up! People make money by breeding dogs, they urn status and they know a lot of gossip goes arround so if there is a problem they rather not tel. It is sad but this seems to be the way the world works. Lets also remember that every breed on the world started out with non pedigree dogs so in fact they evolved by crossing a certain type of dog and we humans made up this thing called pedigree This discussion is circling arround about A'Tim but there more dogs with pedigrees people talk about and again I think you need prove if you start to discus them. I do not believe there is anyone out there who can honestly say, every dog on my dogs pedigree is the right one unless you have bred all 3 generations yourself.
Author
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Everybody can write down a pedigree like this...
, but where is the third generation??
) A-tim is the main point of this topic.
but this seems to be the way the world works. 
